Talking Consent and Porn with Teens: Interview with Shafia Zaloom
Shafia Zaloom, health educator and author of Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between, shares how to talk about consent and sexuality with teens.
Sue Borison here from your team media today. I'm here with Shafia Zaloom a health educator and author of Sex Teens And Everything In Between. You wrote Sex Teens And Everything In Between and who's your target audience? Who's reading your book?
It you know what was challenging is having two audiences and that is not typically what you're supposed to do when you write. You're supposed to be very specific to your target but I really wanted it to be for both teenagers as well as their parents. Initially, parents because I do parent education as well to go with my you know how I teach kids because I believe that the most prevented the way to be most effective in being preventative is to encourage parents as well as their teenagers to meet each other halfway and having this dialogue. So I structured it in a way that the first half of every chapter is for parents, teenagers can read it and get something out of it certainly and then the second half is structured more for teenagers and how they digest information but also role models for parents the language and ways in which you would answer their frequently asked questions. Those that I get when I travel across the country and talk about healthy sexual relationship education. Yes I mean I always, I always encourage parents you know kids need an environment free of judgment shame and ultimatums to share with open honesty so it's really important I encourage parents to lead with empathy to suspend judgment and the best way to do that is to get genuinely curious and talk up to our kids and allow our kids to become experts in some of the things that they're actually dealing with because that's a power that kids have that none of us adults do and that's to know what kids are doing when the adults aren't around and those are the things that we actually really want to be getting into conversation with them about. And so you know staying away from why questions because when we hear why and kids their radar is so sensitive to this when, when they hear why they hear judgment we've already made a judgment when we ask why so stick with things like what, how if you want to make a statement or you know frame a conversation I notice or I've read and I’ve picked up on what do you think? What do you think it would take? how do you think this should go? Did both people get to walk away with their dignity? Those kind of questions from a place of sincere curiosity with the need to understand, I think is the most important for parents to lead with.
So, I guess you're known as the consent lady, right?
Yes.
So, if we continue down that path you have you, use French fries as an example and I can you tell us about that?
Absolutely, so you know kids are concrete thinkers and I find it's really helpful and parents are relieved to realize that we're really talking about what's at work every day in our lives and then just building a concrete bridge into the context of sexuality to talk about it there but consent is at work all the time and consent is basically educating people on how to treat you and listening for how others want to be treated and we do this all the time in our homes. We're doing a lot of it right now with Covid and what's going on as we try to you know figure out how to navigate the space with each other given these different parameters. French fries is a great example because most people like French fries and I’ll do this with you know we can do it right now play it out I do this with parents I do it with students I do it with teachers you know I’ll lead in with getting everybody psyched about fries you know who likes French fries? Most people raise their hands what kind of fries kids love to do this right? Like, you know shoestring fries, chick-fil-a waffle fries with special sauce, ballpark you know garlic fries, you could go on people love to talk about fries so everybody gets excited and then we talk about the sides right and this is fun when I travel because you know who responds to which sides people prefer. It's actually a cultural thing which is really interesting so you know there's barbecue, there's ranch, there's ketchup you know the defining question is who likes mayo with their fries you know you're in California when kids start talking about aioli. So you know there's a lot that we talk about we get excited about fries and then you have these fries on a tray or a plate at home and you sit down at a table with your family member you know family members or your friends what happens? It's a pretty universal experience for a lot of kids, adults too. Adults think parents think about it in a different way and I’ll get to that in a second. You know hands just come darting it and picking off your fries and then I’ll ask a crowd how many of you are actually okay with this? And pretty much nobody will raise their hand. I’ll get a few kids who raise their hands you know just a few that go up and I’ll say okay so are you thinking in terms of context. Well yeah if it's my good friend or we've been sharing fries for a long time you know that kind of thing. I’ll say okay well independent of that context would you be okay with it? What if it was some random person who was you know visiting school and your friends showing them around and they help themselves too. No way you know kind of thing then I asked them what's not okay about that? Well, they didn't ask? All right well, you know they belong to me, they're mine, I’m hungry I went and got them and then other kids will say well they didn't ask and say okay. So what's so important about asking for your French fries if they belong to you? And they'll say well you know it shows respect it's like they care about how you'd feel about your French fries. Good manners show we care about people and i’ll say okay so what gets in the way of actually saying something then how many of you actually say something? Again, a very small number of kids raise their hand they'll say well I’ve been taught to share or I don't want to draw attention to myself, I don't want to be judged people just say like oh it's just fries. I don't want they don't want to introduce awkwardness or contention they don't want to be seen as not being generous you know those sorts of things. So how they're socialized basically in different ways might get in the way and different messages and so then I said okay. So how does this then relate to sexuality because they all know when they can say you know the consent ladies in front of them, they'll say well I say what else belongs to you? My body, our bodies do yes, your body and your sexuality belong to you get to choose how you touch and get touched because your body belongs to you. And then that perpetuate you know that propels us into a conversation about what consent looks sounds and feels like within the context of an interpersonal dynamic.
I mean it's so concrete it's so easy to see the connection between French fries and consent as a as a general concept that I feel like you know when I listen to you talk about it it does really crystallize like the whole idea and the whole idea also being like how hard it would be in a in a physical relationship to ask for consent.
Absolutely especially with how we don't talk about sexuality a whole lot especially sexual consent right? And so with how kids are socialized especially gender socialization can be really powerful in an interpersonal dynamic especially when kids are just trying to figure things out when they're trying to build confidence when they may not know themselves what they want or don't want when it comes to their sexuality and exploring it with someone else. All kinds of things can get in the way and so you know we really have to that's just the beginning that's setting the stage for those conversations about like what language might you use what do you have in your vocabulary that will accurately express what you want and what you don't want in a way that people will hear you and respect you. And then teaching kids too, how do we listen for what someone wants or doesn't want. How are we aware of what gets in the way of someone expressing themselves authentically with us and are those things at work in this dynamic because ultimately and this is where you know me being a sex positive sex educator comes in. As long as things are you know on someone out on someone's terms and within the context of an individual sense of readiness it should be good that is the whole point that it should be a positive and pleasurable experience for both people involved.
We're experiencing a fairly unusual time right now. What is that what is the isolation at least if our kids are isolated, what is that doing to our kids right now? What stories are you hearing from them in terms of you know just the whole idea of their sexuality? If they're in a relationship already? If they're flirting with somebody?
Absolutely, I think you know it's interesting because initially I was so interested in talking to my students about how it's changed and shifted how kids are connecting and communicating with one another and I think the one thing that was universal that all the kids I spoke to have come up with and have shared, is that they've realized who their true friends are. Because you know there's all kinds of interactions you, we have on a regular basis when we experience community and physical ways especially in schools, so you know the kids you're hanging out with in class while you wait for it to start or the kids you always say hi to in the hallway but don't necessarily connect with in other ways. The kids you Snapchat depending on how many friends you have or if you have social media and then the kids who now you actually take the time and put the effort into face timing, texting, staying connected to in the digital space so kids have realized who their real close friends are because of how much time is being invested in connecting because it's such a different context you have to make that extra effort instead of just sending like faces back and forth in Snapchat. And then you know there are the kids you have to take into account their social styles there are some kids who are you know truly introverted and believe that you know this is it will say that it feels like a really long weekend because they actually prefer to stay in, be at home and not be you know socializing or feel the pressure to socialize in the way a lot of other kids do. You also have kids who are in relationship with each other and can no longer be together physically and so you know I hear kids hands down my kids think sexting has gone way up. I've researched that a little bit and there is some research out of the University of Indiana around how much adults are sexting if they are more or less and the information is that those who already might have are doing more of it, those who didn't necessarily aren't and there's actually more of a downward trend because of sort of the negativity of the news and it's not really putting people in the mood. However there are folks who you know who are and I think that aligns with kids. And so, there's some kids who you know are just thinking I just can't even deal with this right now. I'm just going to wait until later, I’m going to focus on my friendships focus on school just kind of get through this they tend to be you know quieter kids’ and then there are kids who are in relationship and more social and coming up with ways like I don't know different videos and things like that to send to each other and getting more creative with how they express their sexuality to each other.
So they're just being as widespread as all kids are like code isn't changing there's not a universal response to this. Okay so this is such a hard one for parents how do we talk to our kids about porn.
You know I think pre-pandemic, post-pandemic, during the pandemic, we have to be having this conversation there's actually pandemic porn you know Peggy Ornstein in her book has a whole chapter that just says if it exists there's porn about it and that is true and pornography you know the American Academy of Pediatrics puts our kids at 14 000 references to sexuality a year that they're exposed to and for some kids a lot of that is coming in through pornography in many other there are many other sources that are exposing our kids to that many sexual references for sure. Porn is just one of them so we need to be talking to kids about media including sexual entertainment media and when it comes to pornography, I think the most important piece again all conversations about sexuality that it's important to suspend judgment and whether your pro-porn or anti-porn is a family value that you can share. But if you really want to get into a conversation about your kid and have them listen to you it's important that we suspend our judgment. And that it's that we communicate it is normal and natural for kids to be curious about porn. It is normal and natural for kids to come across porn it is normal and natural for kids to look to porn if they're curious about sex. What they need to understand though is that it's a very narrow representation of what healthy sexuality, of what sexuality is and many of the important healthy sexuality practices that people should engage in are not represented in pornography. And if kids are looking at porn to understand how sex works that would be like watching the fast and the furious to learn how to drive or watching transformers to learn about physics and that it's not representative of most people's healthy sexual practices.
How do I start the conversation like is there a script that you could suggest that I start the conversation?
So with all these conversations it's important that parents already be talking about media. Kids are digesting media in totally different ways than we did when we were younger and they're streaming it in terms of the ratings some things don't have ratings they're binge watching so not only the media itself but the way by which it's being presented to them and then how they're actually digesting that information. So, there's a lot that we can talk about with media first it's great for parents to talk to kids about sexuality through media because there's a little bit of distance that can make things less awkward and more comfortable. Find out be genuinely curious again suspend judgment what are kids watching these days are there some shows that are particularly popular right now with the pandemic going on and people being on their devices more and having more time to watch. And then either you watch it with your kid if they'll allow for that depends on your relationship with them or you watch what they're watching independent of them and engage in conversation about it. So, this isn't one big talk these are you know you're collecting moments over time you're scaffolding this and you can just ask things like well what did you think about this character or who do you think is the hero or do you think that they treat each other right and they have a positive relationship. Those are the kinds of questions you ask if you're watching with your teenager you could say do you think both people walked away with their dignity? Was consent explicitly asked for? I couldn't tell having some humility and allowing for them to explore that and to share what they know I think is really helpful. Then you can transition into if you're already having conversations about media and you have to resist the temptation to launch like they'll start to open the door you'll find if you take this approach and you can't just jump in all of a sudden like oh finally we're talking and I’m gonna have this remember you have to practice a certain level of restraint if it seems like they're up for that conversation great but you know small moments increments then you could say something like so I was watching this webinar and there was a woman who you know specializes in talking to kids about healthy sexuality and she was discussing pornography as something that's really common. Do you think that's true? Do you think it's gendered? Do you think there are double standards? You know what do you think are some of the reasons why kids are looking to porn? What are they curious about? I think that those are actually really poignant questions that would allow kids to become experts in sort of what they understand and what they see and then you can move on to a conversation to say you know here are the things that I think are really important to know about pornography. It’s not representative most people's healthy choices you know a 10-minute sex scene could actually take four to six hours to create, it's typically contractual not consensual, it's really someone else's fantasy and the most important fantasy is the one that comes from your own imagination. You know all those different things how you're you know when young people watch porn the delivery device of a computer encourages a dopamine reward response and so then what the impact of that may be and that their sexuality and their sexual identity is actually being shaped and formed right now and that watching pornography will then have a hand in that.
I love this the script because it feels doable like starting with a movie or a tv show it just it feels doable so thank you. So, thank you so much Shafia Zaloom and your book Sex Teens and Everything In Between gives precisely what parents need which is the script. That has always been something that we heard from all our parents yeah but how do I start the conversation what language do I use so thank you for doing that and thank you for being here with us.
Thank you so much for having me.