A conversation with Shafia Zaloom, author of "Sex, Teens, & Everything in Between!"

Transcript: A conversation with Shafia Zaloom, author of "Sex, Teens, & Everything in Between!"

Christine Koh: Hi everybody body welcome to AMAZE live. This is very exciting. I was just here last week well not here, but I was live with another guest and now I'm live today with Shafia Zaloom. Hi, how are you? 

Shafia Zaloom: Hi, good things. Good to be here. 

Christine Koh: Yeah, we're so thrilled to have you. I know you're in the middle of book craziness right now.

Shafia Zaloom: Yes.

Christine Koh: So, I would love you to know, it's just going to take a few minutes for people to kind of like assemble but I would love to start out you have such a fascinating background and you do such incredible work. So, I would love for you to tell people a bit about yourself and what you do.

Shafia Zaloom: Okay I'm a health educator, originally was a social worker working with teenagers and really needed to, was inspired to get into preventative work versus working all the time in intervention and in my own experience education and relationships were what I believed were the key to living a happy healthy life. And so that was really how I got into health education in schools and started developing programs. And that was 25 years ago been doing this for 25 years and I've just really been blessed with all kinds of opportunity and work with thousands of families and their children and they are truly my greatest teachers and inspiration. So, I do a lot of listening and teach in a lot of different places. So, it became the consent lady by default, really so you know when I started having children. There was a woman and we were trying to figure out our schedules being with child care and I picked up the health education peace in our program that was about human sexuality and that was about 10 to 15 years ago. I'm in really started to specialize in that and then was approached to create a curriculum guide for documentaries films and the first When was the hunting grounds which is about sexual assault on college campuses and then sold with the movie about the sex trafficking of young girls. Trapped which is about trapped cause and then I consulted on Audrey and Daisy which is the documentary film about sexually assaulted high school girls and the social media exploitation that took place afterward. So, it garnered media attention which then put me out into the world and I started consulting more broadly across the United States. So, I've had the opportunity to know a lot of different schools in different states and work with kids in those schools as well.

Christine Koh:  Well, that's amazing and actually, you know, obviously it's the perfect segway to your book which is I have a copy here. I don't know how much this way, Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between and while I was just telling you before we hopped on. That it was like real life 101 reading your book. You know, I have a 15-year-old and also an 8-year-old and it covers so many things. I mean could send sexual harassment and assault, gender, porn, pleasure, bystander intervention. And I was also you know quite moved by the survivor’s stories and I was just curious about whether that was the inspiration into even writing the book, you know, just having all these stories with you all the time.

Shafia Zaloom: I think when I started to realize, you know, I'm so humbled and inspired by kids to share with open honesty with me, even though I'm still always the adult in the room and I know when I would talk to people because of this media attention and I was traveling like, Do you have a book? How can we access what you're doing beyond you know you coming here for a couple of days or whatever it is? And I didn't have a book at that time and in so, you know that was sort of the motivation and inspiration was people saying it would be such a contribution if you could actually put this in a package for us. And so that was really what it was, you know when doing consent work and becoming the consent Lady by default going to different schools and empowering kids with language and knowledge about what this actually is. So many kids would come to me too. And so, I started you know talking to her, working with more survivors and at the same time just became something really that was in the national discourse in the media and it was always well-known people. But when you look at the statistics it's everywhere and it's everyone, it's the people we love and we care about every day. It’s our neighbors. It's maybe our kid, it's our aunt, or uncle or whoever it is. And so, you know my mission since I've started this work was to humanize sexuality and provide information for young people. They eat it up. They are hungry for it. They just need a path. They want to do what's right. They have help enriching their loving relationship. They long for authentic connection. With the culture, the greater culture is empowering them do that. In fact, it's the opposite and reverse. And we still live in a very sex-negative culture. And so, the sex-positivity that they are looking for and that doesn't mean wanting to have sex all the time. That means wanting to connect with others knowing what all this means, how to make sense of what they're seeing on TV. Abhorring their feeds, the messages that they are getting that conflict. Just how to navigate this. So that was really the inspiration. So yes, absolutely humanizing the issue of consent, malconsensual, assault and harassment is just clearly a problem in our country, in our culture. But also, the positive side of sexuality. That so many can't see because no one telling them that it can actually be good. And I don't want to say there's actually lots of us we're doing this work in really effective ways but generally speaking relative to how many kids are in school and out there in the United States. They're not getting you know, sex education first and foremost. And or a positive lens by which to understand and learn this stuff.

Christine Koh: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more to that. Well, since you are the consent lady, you know, that is actually one of the things I wanted to start and so let's talk about consent and setting the stage early which is just so important, you know I really like that in your book you wrote asking for consent is not something that has to be hard or awkward. It's a natural human expression of caring and concern for another person. So, what would you say are the best ways for parents to start this conversation early understanding that as parents were often coming to the conversations for the bog down by all these things like thinking of our kids as sexual beings or whatever it is?

Shafia Zaloom: That's an added layer that it can complicate this because historically we separated sex from everything else. It seems and how we talk about it and how we teach kids about it, but it really is integral to our overall well-being. So, when they start to talk about let's say elementary school kids, I mean for me I have actually believed it starts when they start to talk. They learn about what is a nose or a knee or an elbow that we're also including all those body parts including genitalia using the correct words, you know.  Really is about normalizing the conversation about sexuality and sexual well-being. Children, they don't have an erotic lens. That is developed later in life and in so much of the time, we project that into our, you know, thinking about this when we want to talk to him about it. And it just like true. So, with little kids, talking about space bubbles. So, you know how to honor and respect someone's face. How we treat each other matters, narrating emotional, narrating the emotional experience of people that were witness to especially with how our behavior impacts them, you know, things like that. Also teaching kids with language how to stick up for themselves, girl’s leadership as an amazing job at this with Sonny behavior. behavior brave body I contact. Expressing how we feel, giving kids the language to talk about feelings no matter what their gender. That's really how it starts. That’s what it looks like when they're little. Also asking good manners, show we care about people so I like to take the sex out of it for the little kids because that's appropriate and important and consensual work all the time in our lives. And I take your bike and go to the corner to buy a sandwich if I have your consent, I'm borrowing it. But if I don't, I'm stealing it. If I hit you and I have your consent we could be wrestling, boxing, playing. If I don't it could be assault and it really hurtful. You know French fries tend to be my signature tease and trying to talk to kids about this because everybody likes French fries. Do you like French fries?

Christine Koh: Oh, I do. Yes, of course, that right.

Shafia Zaloom: So, adult, kids, or any age. Right so, little kids like French fries too you know, I'll ask. Do you like French fries? What kind of fries and then what kind of sides do you like? And sort of set it up so if you have fries on your plate down and you put your plate down and you’re at a table with your family or friends? What starts to happen? A room of a hundred kids and adults would say, how many of you are actually okay with that? Nobody's raising their hands but no one's saying anything for the most part guide there were that happens. You know I guide people to say So what's not okay about that? Well, they didn't ask, or what so important about asking? That's respectful, that they care what your answer would be. Kids will say, they're mine they belong to me. So, you know passionate about that their mind they belong to me and they taking them without asking and how come no one says anything. And kids will say I've been taught to share. Or I don't want to cut, I don’t want to be judged. I don't want to make it awkward but just French fries. So how these relate to sexual consent. Well, it belongs to you, your body. Well, Emily Nagurski, people get to choose how to touch and get a touch, their bodies belong to them. That's how we can talk about this with younger kids. And all the people too, I mean when I say a room full of parents everyone suddenly start thinking about the last same day, they spice up their kid’s play.

Christine Koh: Well, yeah food autonomy. Well, I just wanted to tell you a quick comment from Rosalino Rivera. She says yes need to educate them on all aspects. Thanks for commenting which is reminding me to tell people that if you questions for Sophia who is the expert on consent in all manner of things, please drop them in the comments and we'll get them and if you're coming to this later also do the same and I'll be back in and try to get this questions answered and one more thing I wanted to mention on that. I think I love the French fry analogy to so on point and just want to say, learn the kids can be our teacher sometimes and I learned from my younger daughter when she was really, really real. She was just like my older kid wanted all the hugs all the time. My younger one life just wasn't into people. So, so we became it became our thing to be like when, and my family is very like physical but I would say, Okay Violet. Do you want to want to give like a high-five or hug or nothing? And she gives her that choice and once she established that that was a choice and I later learn from the amazing girl on our team that, that's a thing like teaching kids those little simple things just signal that, yes. This is your body is it's just really important. It was kind of an accidental discovery.

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, to encourage ownership, bodily autonomy to give kids choice and that also reinforces that you honor her intuition, what her intuition is telling her in an embodied experience and that you're actually going to listen to her and respect her. Believe her when she that this is isn't right for her and that she needs alternatives and options.

Christine Koh: Yeah, definitely. So there's I read in your book that I admit I was like sure I have heard about this but I’ve not heard about this and so you talked about what I'd love for you to talk about is why yes means yes is better than no means no and I just not heard Yes means yes before and it's not a distinction that I would love for you to share a bit about that.

Shafia Zaloom: So, these are cultural statements and when you look at the legislation. Yes means yes came about when the affirmative consent laws were being considered and being voted in and the media picked up on it and decided to coin the phrase Yes means Yes. So, it is a culture that came cultural, organic cultural reference. Before no means, no was sort of the mantra. The problem with no means no is that someone is going to get to a point of the rest or to there so uncomfortable that they have to say no, we know that because of gender socialization and some other aspects of political identity. When you layer those things and they intersect and they intersect with sexual interaction, it sometimes people don't feel comfortable saying no. That they feel like obligated to say yes. Especially in gender dynamics and how they exist. The other pieces that sometimes when people are experiencing trauma. When they have fight, flight or freeze That they actually freeze makes themselves feel smaller because they are trying to survive the situation that they feel is traumatic and not be able to actually neurologically to say no. And so there are a lot of loopholes and problems with that statement. And ultimately when it comes to sexual exploration and experiences, we should be good. That's the point right? And so if we want to ensure them that people are going to be safe that we're protecting the fundamentals of human dignity, which is basically treating people like they have, value inherent value then we would shift for a call for a dialogue and create laws that actually required people to look for yes. Yes means yes is that we actually looking to affirm desire. That we are not waiting until it gets bad to the point that someone wants to stop it. That is actually is moving on a trajectory that's going to be positive. Because engaging in sexual exploration with someone who actually wants to engage in sexual exploration with you is a positive thing. Again, it's about how we treat each other and that that matters completely.

Christine Koh: Yeah, that completely makes sense. So thank you for that. We have a question, I wish you could hear me I have a little echo on my side, but can you hear me alright?

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, ok.

Christine Koh: Ok. We have a question and it is, what if. what if a grandparent is talking to a child about their weights were coming back to like body and you know, were innocent stuff and the parent doesn't feel that's appropriate to talk to them about weight at any age. How do you create? Basically, the question is how do you create boundaries, you know where the relative without making it a huge deal?

Shafia Zaloom: I think it's really important that we as the adults have conversations as adults about those things at a different time and a different context without kids right there. A lot has to acknowledge that sometimes this happens spontaneously or talk about both ways. So, if you can, you know, this does happen with my own parents all the time, my mom in particular. And I have to pull her side and explain to her and say, I understand that in terms of your experience, this is something that your learned, that you're noticing and talking to my kid about and what I understand is that no one have learned through my own research that actually to be to their detriment but that doesn't serve them well, and that it leads to negative body image they aren't able to stick up for themselves. There’re all kinds of information and happy to share it. If you could please not do that? I'd really appreciate it. That's a hard conversation to have especially with your parent and the only people we can control are ourselves and how they may respond. Hopefully, it's going to be positive and supportive. It may not be. At the same time, if it is happening spontaneously you can say, I've noticed that we really just want to or if you know, I've noticed that this has happened and talk to your child about it and say, you know your grandparent or whoever threw up during a different time where it was okay to say things like that, but we know from information that it's better not to that actually being strong and healthy and able body is what's most important. So I want to make sure, you know and sort of balance that out talk to them about it do a little intervention. If you are witness to the dynamic taking place right at that moment. You can know intervene with that same statement to say actually it's really most important to be able-bodied and strong and healthy and it's important to eat intuitively so it's okay if you don't want to finish or I love your body the way it is. I see you being strong and it enabling you to play sports and all the things that you love and enjoy, so it's okay.

Christine Koh: Yeah, that's fantastic that you are also you know reinforcing that as parents. Like we're the ones who see our kids the most, you know, we are the ones who can like kind of keep gently reinforcing those messages. So we have a lot of agency and in you know, what happened. I mean like, of course even one comments, you know, we know that one comment can really sting. My older daughter had an issue with a coach and he made a comment about her body and I basically went over the deep end. I feel like it's a heartening thing that as parents when could just keep it in a shift of really positive way and that's a good thing.

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, I mean even my pediatrician said to my something to my own daughter and I also went off the ship. But you can ways to diffuse without being demon or confrontational when you're witnessing this thing to diffuse the situation in front of your kid and then have the adult conversation you need to without person to follow up about you know, where you're coming from and and what's important and what your family's valuing in how do you want your kids to grow up? And to feel good about themselves.

Christine Koh: And yeah, that's great idea. The person who ask that question says, awesome love that. It's not just to the grandparent but also to talk to the child and correct the message. That was helpful. Ok, so I want to talk to you about porn. It has been oh my gosh this week alone. It has been all over the media. I don't know if you saw the Celine special purchase lost launched a podcast and it was the subject of her first episode. Just fascinating stuff and we need to see a lot of conversation about it here, you know people get really really, real about it. So in your opinion, what is one of the most active things parents can do to help please understand porn whether they're like seeking out-and-out intentionally or they stumble upon it accidentally. It's going to happen. Right?

Shafia Zaloom: Part of it, depends on the age of your child and if you think they have been exposed or if they are seeking it out. Those are two very different things. So, if they're coming across that you can say, there's something on the Internet like you talk about all kinds of negativity on the Internet as well as positive, right? So, having that conversation with your child as a digital citizen about digital citizenship, how we use digital opportunities and devices as a tool and not just like the bigger world cyberspace are the digital world. There are positive things and negative things and things in between that can be confusing. So engaging conversation about what they may come across and how they might identify something that is negative and is not age-appropriate for them and then the positive stuff. You can also put of course, filters on your computers, kids will get to a certain age where they actually need to be able to for school have those listed but I've been engaging in these conversations and scaffolding that message across time. So they're prepared at that moment to understand, you know, what's appropriate and what isn't. If kids are seeking it out for and it is important not to shame them. It is important not to acknowledge and validate that it is normal and natural to be curious about porn, to be drawn to porn. It's so perasive, so accessible and so many kids are watching it. You know, or have come across it that we can't shame them about it cuz they'll just shut down and then that doesn't contribute to their sexual identity formation in any positive way. And then engage in dialogue, you know in the book. I have a whole chapter. I don't know if you read it in terms of ideas people the language and ways by which they can talk about forms. And what's real and what's not unfortunately porn has sort of become the default sex education of our country and people, because we are not teaching them and the way we were about things is to Google them. Kids come across that they're looking to try and figure out what sex is about by watching porn coz that's what's available. And you know the issue with that is that that's like looking, that's like watching the Fast and the Furious to learn how to drive. Like watching Transformers to learn about physics. You know, and that is not, it's a very narrow representation of sexuality. It's for entertainment purposes, not educational purposes. It is in many ways tactual not consensual. That it doesn't include a lot of important safe sexuality and practices. Very normative in the high-speed internet for, the clickbait is notorious for being misogynistic and violence against women that's exaggerated response. So you don't want to unload on your kid and dump all this stuff and talk about all this negativity but start to collect moments. It's the value of these small victories where you look for, you heightened your awareness opportunity to insert a value to have this conversation to drop a couple sentences about your observation of it and then to move on. Do this over time and build upon your message? And I think that's really the most effective.

Christine Koh: Yeah.

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, you have to give positive alternatives.

Christine Koh: Yeah. Absolutely. I just started jotting down a couple things that I'll link up after the broadcast but you know, one of the things that really, really hit the mark for me when I was listening to Katie Couric podcast, and she had I don't know if you know Al Vernacchio. He's a sexuality educator and author and then he was talking about you know of general concept and how important, even if you don't want to talk to your kids about porn which obviously I know that's difficult for parents is just set the stage and as you said scaffolding with talking about healthy relationships and you know respect and all those things, you know, those are things so parents can definitely dig in and talk about so I just wanted to encourage those listening like start their you know that the hour I think that's like a good place to start.

Shafia Zaloom: I was in a book, facilitating a book group last night and the same question came about porn and you know what, it's really important how early do I start having this conversation about porn. It's really normal and natural to be inspired to talk about the negativity right, to protect our children. We need to be vigilant; we want to protect our kids to keep them safe. That whenever we perceive that may not be good for them or positive for their development. That's what we want to go to, but I actually suggest starting with what's positive and good. When you say the word respect. I'll walk into a room and be teaching a hundred High School seniors and I'll say how many of you have been taught to respect people yourselves and other people your whole lives and every hands will go up. Now who can give me a definition and every hand goes down. And so we really need to be explicit with the things about what we mean when we are talking. And that role model, effective and authentic communication to prose and what that does mean exactly what does that look, sound and feel like. Because lots of kids have actually misinformation and think that respect is treating people how you want to be treated. That is treating others how they want to be treated. That requires empathy. So, engaging in these positive conversations about healthy relationships. What they look like and being exquisite, and younger, actually all people. Another analogy I use for effective communication is think of a bear, did you read about this in the book? So think of the bear, my kids like you could think of a bird fly, you could do you know there are different ways to do this and engage your kids in fun conversation about how you could get creative with this concept, but I'll ask about the people in the room. Think of a bear, the animal, and this comes from a Dave, lot of attention, he's amazing and I first learned it from him and it just go to run with it. I'll say think of a bear, so everybody thinks of a bear. See it in your mind's eye, think of what a bear looks like, what it's doing, then I ask people to start sharing their bears. You'll get brown bear, grizzly bear on the California flag. Brown bear fishing on a stream. Polar bear on a piece of ice. yogi bear, smokey bear, gummy bears, teddy bear. What's the takeaway? We all knew what a bear was, everybody's there is different. Actual communication, when it comes to authentic communication, relationships that is productive we have to take a time to understand people's bears.

Christine Koh: Yeah, absolutely. Running short on time and I have a couple more question I want to ask you so I'm going to move to a different topic you have I mean, there's a lot about safety, you know, there's a whole chapter on it and what struck me about this was I like how you frame it that you know, there's a reality that kids will need to make. You know the best choice they can make you know in a difficult situation. So how would you recommend, you know, a parent handle a situation where you know, they have a friend who is a bit of a boundary pusher and make bad decisions coz you know, it's kind of a dance because you don't want to be so heavy-handed about like telling them about safety and all that so that they gravitate more from that person but you still want your kid to make good decisions. I know it's a big question.

Shafia Zaloom: So I think it's really important not to approach that with judgment. I encourage parents to get really curious about their kids. Not to ask why because you've already made a judgment when you ask why, he knows that. Ask the what. What does it take? How does it feel? What the how, the where so that you were exploring and experience with your kid and what's going on? Also if you want to make an observation, I noticed you noticing that in to your child consciousness. I noticed that when you're with this person, this behavior happens. Let's talk about that.  What do you think that's ok, how does that feel to you? Is there that something inside you feels wrong. Just making sure that your kid is clear. On how they went. what's happening in the dynamic of their relationship because they may not know. And we want to encourage them to have language and practice using language that are authentically expresses their experience and identifies when things may not be in their best interest. I think that's the most important piece. I’m so sorry. I just need to plug in my computer really quick. Sorry. I thought it was in a viable one, but it needed the one below it. So I think that's super important and they can give your kids the skills and the language to actually stick up what they know to be right. So if  there hanging out with this kid. Because you can push the kids further into that and shut them down by setting their friends and say don't do this. So instead empower them for them to make decisions that honors the values you've been teaching them and it's great practice too and just stick up for themselves. So you could ask them, so what do you think is a good strategy because I know you care about them being friends with this person, so and so. When you know something that they are doing isn't right, that there's a work for you and your intuition, you know, when your gut is telling you, I shouldn't be doing this, what can you say and do in that situation? Really explore different options in terms of concrete language, instruction. You can always I always offer to my children that they can use me as an excuse saying no to things. Because we have to remember that kids are not saying no to a substance. they are not saying no to a behavior. They are saying no to a relationship. The person offering it to them, whether it's a good time or let's do something that I think would be cool, we'd be a shared experience, or you know, trying to engage them in some sort of behavior that they think will be bonding. So we have to remember compassionately that that kids aren't really saying no to that part that we want them to say no to, they feel like they are saying no to the person, the relationship that's offering it.

Christine Koh: Mind blown that is like such a crazy an important distinction that I had not thought yet. So personally, thank you, but also for everybody that's that's crazy amazing. So I wouldn't close with one question. I mean it's it's again, it's a big one but you know as parents, you know, how do we turn the tide against this culture that teaches girls in your words? Don't push, don't be assertive. Don't make a fuss.

Shafia Zaloom: So that's the gender paradigm. And I think it's important that we include all genders in that conversation because the gender norms that exist in our culture which are pretty exclusive in binary by design. Reinforce each other a lot of times we tend to talk about them separately according to gender and a gendered way when we actually have to talk about them together, because they dive and they reinforce each other. So, you know when it comes to that in particular you mentioned girls to talk about what the gender paradigm is to  ask. be curious about what are some of the messages you've gotten so far about being a girl. And what do you think is real and what do you think we should aspire to. There's the world we want to live in and then the world we actually live in and how do we navigate that? The north of the conversations to have with our kids and to make it a age appropriate. Your child when you ask these questions based on the messages they are getting cuz the messages shift and evolve as they get older right. So, what is that look like for a younger girl versus an adolescent girl versus a woman because we all get these messages at different in different levels at different levels and intensities? So, you know, what is the embodied experience? What is your child's hearing? Is it impacting them? And providing different ways to think about what it means. You're providing more options for kids in terms of how they can beat and identify their gender.

Christine Koh:  Yeah, so helpful. This has been an amazing conversation. I really, I can't thank you enough. After the broadcast, we linking up a bunch of things that we talked about and your work and of course your book which I hold up and recommends that everybody, gosh, I can't get this framing right. It's really I mean, it's it's so real it, such a fascinating read and it just like this is the stuff that we have to deal with so much and help prepare our kids for. So thank you so much for your time today. It was just really great to talk to you today.

Shafia Zaloom:  Thank you for your interest.

Christine Koh:  Alright. Take care everybody and if you come into this broadcast later, I just wanted to remind you to ask your questions and I will get them answered. And till next time guys. Take care.

Listen to the original recording: Here