Advice from Famous Sex Educator Shafia Zaloom
Cara: Shafia Zaloom is a health, educator consultant and author whose work is about creating opportunities for students and teachers to discuss the complexities of Team culture and decision-making with straightforward open. And very honest, dialogue. Shafia's book sex teens and everything in between has been reviewed and as quote, the ultimate relationship guide for teens of all orientations and identities. Shafia currently the health teacher at the urban School in San Francisco and develops curriculum and training for schools across the country. Her work has been featured in many media Outlets including the New York Times USA Today and PR, KQED and PBS. I could go on she lives in California with her husband and three children. Shafia we are so so happy to have you on the puberty podcast.
Shafia: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Cara: This is like having the hottest celebrity in the world to come talk to you about sex. It's like, i don't know if people appreciate what a big deal this is. It's like, it's like have I been tryin to say the hottest sex celebrity and then I was like white, but that doesn't say if I have the right grammar to say that properly, maybe it would. But for those of you who are not yet familiar with Safia's work, just know that you are in for a major major treat and some of you may know, but most of you may not that Shafia works with the folks at big mouth, including my little brother nick, who credits, her, and her students, with incredible insight into the sex lives and the puberty. Lives and the emotional lives of teens. So a lot of what you have seen in may be in a state of shock and wonder and a little bit of fear. A lot of it comes from Shafia's, incredible work with the folks at Big Mouth. So, if it makes you feel a little better about watching Big Mouth knowing that should be is guiding hand is in there somewhere. Just keep that in mind.
Vanessa: We are super psyched to have you. I love how calmly you sit and listen to car read all of your accolades with like barely cracking a smile. If those were my accolades I'd be like dancing around the room with my arms in the air I'd be like dancing around the room with my arms in the air I'd be like dancing around the room with my arms in the air. But you are the expert of experts with the energy of the chillest, Bay Area Vibe, which probably explains why you're so incredibly successful in getting teenagers to talk to you about the most intimate and complex and fraught topics. So, you walk into a room often a room filled with strangers often a room filled strangers who are possibly surly certainly cynical adolescents arms crossed, hoodies up, maybe even sunglasses on or a vape and a back pocket. You're dealing with the most cynical of all folks. How do you start? Because that's what we're all facing across.because that's what we're all facing across hopefully not the vape in the back pocket, but that's what we're facing across. The breakfast table, the dinner table, in the car. Where do you begin with this? It's complicated and wonderful audience.
Shafia: I think complicated is the right word when talking about this because yes those descriptive words that you use are certainly present in all of the audience's that I'm teaching to. But a lot of them are actually really hungry for this information. So they're not actually presenting in that way to me. And that's one of the benefits of being in my role and position is that actually all those different sort of interpersonal dynamics that exist between parenting adults. Kids don't necessarily exist and I'm on the older side. I've been teaching for a while and the consent lady, you know, kids are actually really curious about what I have to say. And a lot of times when I'm going to work with kids, or I'm going to a school to consult because they teach in a lot of different states and schools across the country is all have points of contact prior. So I always like to zoom with a group of kids, from different social groups. I ask the adults who are my contacts to facilitate that and then I I get to meet with them prior to my showing up. I send out Google forms that ask for all their anonymous questions. I give them a little sense of who I am. So in many ways I’m trying to model how we're going to actually build rapport and the healthy ways in which we approach an initiate relationships, right? So they understand who I am that I'm a, the adult in the room, but that I'm also someone who believes in them and their capacity to handle this kind of information and what they're going to do with it. But I get what you're asking In terms of because I actually have a lot of kids who are like woohoo. I'm psyched. I want to learn this. Thank goodness. I'm drowning in information. I'm like starving for guidance. How do I make sense of this and can't wait to click on the anonymous questions link, you know, all those sort of things. And so I really start with trying to engage in a way that is respectful with clear boundaries where I'm not leveraging. The Social Power Dynamic of me being the teacher right in an authoritarian role with the kid. It's because we all know that if we're going to share with open honesty, we have to create an environment that's free of judgment, ultimatums and shame. And so when I come in, it's really more about this sort of positive energy. We're all here. I try to be really affirming of different identities and I'm very explicit about who I am and what my intentions are.
Cara: Is that what parents can channel, which is not coming in, as the know-it-all not coming in, as the person who's going to punish. But instead coming in as a person with information. Who is available to answer questions? Because it seems like if we're going to take some of the lessons of your teaching experience in a classroom and apply them out of the classroom and help adults who don't have the benefit and frankly, the gift of what you have, right? It's a total privilege to do what you do. And it's so fun. Having done sort of a fraction of what you've done. It's the best imaginable job, but in the parenting world feels really different in my house. It feels really, really different when I’m having those conversations with my own kids and what is the balance there and how can people who are listening to this what can they glean from, how you get to walk into that room and what can they take from it? So that they can do it in the car or at home or wherever they're going to have these conversations?
Shafia: You know, that's really tricky and I just want to thank you for recognizing that it is different. Like when I am dealing I have three children and when I'm talking to my own kids, it's very different because of context. Right context is different context is everything relationships and that's something we want to model too. When it comes to parents I think it's true with this conversation We don't want to be the know-it-all. We actually want to become the askable parent. And not only do we have information, we have values. So I think that's the piece that parents lose sight of is that they are the primary sexuality educator in a child's life. They aren't the only one because they're people like me and there's a media and all these other, you know, people and entities that are socializing your child and teaching them about sex with implicit and explicit messages, but parenting adults are the primary sexuality educator in a child's life. So I think it's really important that we recognize that also that we model the very thing we want to teach, which really is the most effective way to get anything across. And we all know that, right? Anyone who has kids or teaches kids or works with kids in some capacity understands that. And so, how can we allow kids also to be experts in their own? Variance and how can we model healthy vulnerability in my work? And what I find is the biggest obstacle for kids, engaging because we all know it's different from knowing to actually doing to cultivate that capacity for them to actually put into practice. The things we're trying to teach is to lead by example, to create those moments in our own relationships with them. So they have something to go on so they can be empathetic healthy. Ability is something that kids try to avoid and therefore something we really need to model because you cannot engage in authentic connection without it. And I have not met a parent or parenting adult yet who doesn't want the young person. They love and care about to have enriching, caring, loving relationships that are fulfilling in their lives and grounded in mutual respect safety empathy, you know, all those things and we can't do that without vulnerability.
Vanessa: I want to go back to something. You said Sofia because parents assume if we're thinking about having these conversations in our homes parents assume that their kids actually don't want to hear this from them. One of the most common comments we get from adults is like my kid doesn't want to know or my kid doesn't want to know from me. And like I've just given up talking to them about it because they're telling me like to go away or they walk out of the room, or they roll their eyes or they shrug or whatever. But what you're saying, is so important for adults to hear which is these kids are hungry for information and they are desperate to know because it's impossible for them to parse all of the flows of information coming at them that are conflicting confusing frightening. Whatever makes them hard for the kids to understand. So, when adults, think about creating a vulnerable environment modeling with empathy, giving information setting boundaries. What is that sound like when you step into a classroom? How do you create that in a classroom setting? And then how can we kind of translate that into a home setting or a setting where they're adults talking to kids, not in a classroom. So like you walk in the room, you've zoomed with them. You've got their Google forms, you know, their deepest, most private questions, you get a sense of the vibe and the culture of the school. What do you say when you when you get to be with those kids to set those boundaries and create that empathy?
Shafia: I mean, the first is is sharing but not sharing too much of like who I am and why I'm there, right? Because actually, the majority of the time kids, don't want personal information about the people, they're engaging in conversation with or being taught by. They want information that's real and relevant to them and what they're dealing with and sometimes they don't know how to ask. That, and it's developmentally appropriate that it shows up in ways of like, asking you personal questions and things like that. So, very clearly from the beginning. I'll be transparent about, like, what? My intentions are who i am. What does it mean to be a sex-positive sex educator? How come sex education? Now, what's going on in all of your lives? What can I draw on in terms of social science and data? While also just narrative experience, right? Like what kids have shared, what i hear. Sometimes what I notice right, with non-judgmental language. I love I noticed because it really is not judgy. I never lead with why I always leave with how or what, so you're really creating a Vibe. That's very exploratory and create space and allows them in their individual selves to like, consider what you're saying and we start slow. So, you know, on the one hand, I'll say, we only have my classes six weeks long and it follows a Lifeline, a romantic relationship. And I'll say, So we only have this much amount of time. So I'm going to jump right in and we're going to model how to actually engage in a relationship week. One is sexuality, and self week, two is attraction in the Neurology of it and how you initiate a relationship where both people get to walk away with dignity. Like I'm very concrete because they are concrete thinkers, but I'm also just recognizing and acknowledging and I have to say like and here's where I think it's really different and I wouldn't encourage parents to expect that they can do what I do in a classroom with their kids. It's a different relationship. It's a different context. You haven't been talking to kids all day every day for the last 30 years, about sex with teenagers. Like so you can't have that expectation and I still mess up all the time. And when I do, I'm like, you know, we laugh about it. We don't laugh at it, if that makes sense. And I lay out, some very clear guidelines that we're going to suspend judgment. It's called license to fumble and use the ouch. So, these are some examples, right? It's okay to make mistakes, i encourage the kids to use language. They're most comfortable with as long as it's not gratuitous. And so if something, then within that context comes up that offend someone or hurt someone, they can say ouch and we'll pause and I will mediate whatever needs to have happened, you know, so it really is about being real and direct and honest in a parenting role. I actually think it's a little different. I am giving huge amounts of information and guiding conversation over long periods of time. Parents don't actually, I wouldn't encourage them to do that. Parents are looking for collecting small moments. It's the value of these small victories if you will, in which you're looking for just a moment where you could drop a value or ask an interesting question that inspires reflection or you share something about something you've heard of and they're wondering what they think or if that's something they've seen in their own experience. So it's a little different, right? It's not this huge information drop. If someone came up to you and knocked on your door and had something to offer and you opened it just a crack to see what was on the other side if you suddenly barged in and overwhelm them with all kinds of stuff. What would you do? You'd shut the door, right? Like that would be our natural reaction. Same thing with parents. I would not encourage parents to suddenly go gather all this information and just like dump it on. Their kids in these really big moments and have these huge talks. It's really scaffolding over time. It's engaging. In conversation about the media, they're watching what you're what, they're observing from a sociological perspective in their friendships. That kind of thing.
Cara: I'm going to make you laugh last night. I was so excited about this recording and I was rereading your book which I'm just going to do a quick plug for parents and for teenagers. It is a remarkable read. I've read it before I read it again. I just love it and I had this moment where I thought oh God. I have not had this one talk that came up in your book. And so what i do. I take off my professional hat that knows how to do this. I put on the mother. Had that really does my car off. Mom hat does not do this super well all the time at home and i went into one of my kids room, sat, on the bed, my do it sunday night. There's like a whole sunday night homework thing happening in in their minds. This is really not exactly the time for our conversation around. How exactly do you want to engage in a conversation about? Out consent with your partner, right? But I hiked in my mind because I've been reading, I'm there, right? And it's been in my head for the last couple of hours. And I'm so I'm there. So I pull up down on the bed and I just launched into it. I mean exactly what you've just described, I am at the front door and I am banging on it and I am barging in. And what did I get in response? I mean, a very polite because my kids are used to me being out of sync with the Batman terms of timing of when I'm ready to have the conversation and when they are. But I got a very polite or slime and just like mom actually I have a project due tomorrow. Let's put a pin in this and we can talk about it later, which it was very, very patient, but it's exactly exactly right. And what gets tricky here. Is that going back to something? You said earlier, they do as we do even more than they do, as we say, and we need to model all these things. But when it comes to talking about sex, We're not actually modeling that piece of the equation for them because that's private and that's behind closed doors. So we can model everything that is in and around and adjacent to that. But there's this one gigantic bucket of items that they're never going to really, watch us do anything. That feels like it muddies the water. Is that a fair way of putting it?
Shafia: Yes, for sure. And I love the story because I have those moments too if my own children for sure and I love that they're polite with you because mine aren't always so polite. Not always mom, you know, screaming. Come on. Can't you see? And it actually, so it's a moment in to illustrate some of what you just said, you know, consent is a Vibe, not just a moment. When people's bodies are interacting or whatever else, it can centrally is a Vibe, and it's how you approach, right? Reading. Context being attuned to someone understanding when they're going to be receptive or not. How do we approach this conversations and ask? Do you have a lot of homework right now? I just came across this thing. I'm really excited about talking to you about it, and I'm restraining myself. When would be a good time Right? And I love that. They did that for you and basically mirrored. What they would hope you would do for them.
Cara: What you're making such an important point because You're modeling consent when it's not about sex, right? And you talked about that in the book and we talked about that a lot with kindergarteners and kids standing in line and pushing each other or kids playing with each other's hair and they don't want to beds playing with each other's hair and they don't want to be touched. So the this is important to me. I want to talk to you about this topic. Is this a good time? Is exactly modeling for them. I I love that. The other thing is car as you said we can't show our kids how to have sex, right? We can't be vulnerable in the way of like, well, here's how I do it. I'm going to be open with you. That's not that sounds awful parenting.
Vanessa: No, right, but we can model for them. The vulnerability that it takes to be open with their Partners when they have those conversations, right? So it's not like specifically in a sexual context but it is, hey, you know what? I realize i need to talk to you about this topic and messed up because i've never discussed it with you and that's on me and i'm feeling i'm feeling badly about it. Can we have a conversation about, you know, consent or salt or whatever it is. So I think just in the same way we can we can model some of these other things we can model vulnerability and this is where I want to take us next Shafia is So much of that's hard for teens is the vulnerability involved in communicating openly and honestly about what they want or don't want what feels good or doesn't feel good. What feels comfortable or scary or anything. So we might as adults have that language a lot of us as adults, actually don't have that language, but for kids, they have like a whole other vocabulary when being vulnerable, particularly in a sexual context. And I'd love for you to spend a minute talking to us about What does it sound like if there are two kids navigating their sexual relationship? What does that conversation sound like between them because it definitely doesn't sound like what, you know, hi. Do I have your permission to touch your genitals? Right? Like it doesn't sound like that. What does it sound like based on your conversations with kids?
Shafia: Not anything. I mean, there is a lot of Silence. There's not a lot of talking because a lot of kids are learning about the mechanics of Sexuality backing up, just a little bit. You were talking about how as parents we model the values that frame this conversation, right? Which I think is so important to understand that, the majority of sexuality education is about values. That's what I was sort of alluding to before, is that parents actually aren't talking about the mechanics of sex necessarily, they're not talking about genitalia. I mean, you can give your kid a book and you can talk about those things. It's like everybody's going to feel more comfortable getting that information across in those other ways. What you're talking about is how we apply that information to the complexities of interpersonal, Dynamics in human relationships. And vulnerability for kids is really hard and I think it's really ideal also to think that, like, asking your kid. When can I talk to you about? This is go to go overwhelming to be like, oh actually, I have an opening, it, 2:00 and we could do it, then that's not going to happen. In the majority of kids may just run away screaming which a lot of my kids, you know, times. My kids will do and be like, no, I'm going to learn this in school, I don't need to talk about it with you or just give me a book or whatever. I mean, they've just actually dropped a gift in your lap because in that moment, you can say and anybody who has engaged in a healthy sustained relationship in their life intimate relationship will know. Sometimes the hardest conversations are the most important ones to have and this is so hard for me to because I didn't get them when I was younger. This kind of freaks me out too, and I don't That I know everything and I probably don't and I really want to hear what you know and be able to say because we got to have this, this is what's going on in our world and to be your loving and caring responsible parent. We need to have a conversation like this is going to be really hard and we're going to do it anyway, and I think that's important when it comes to kids in what things look sound and feel like to them in these intimate moments when they're exploring and expressing sexuality with each other. You don't hear about a lot of talking if I do. You start to venture into the realm of, you know, if it's coercive. I just want to be clear. We confuse kids a lot because the majority of the time they hear about consent and how consent works. And when you can give anyone, you can't is under this umbrella of sexual violence and we don't talk enough or give enough air time to talking to kids about consent. As so fundamental one to protecting the fundamentals of human dignity, and how it's so essential to having a positive, enriching pleasurable, responsible sexual experience. And that I think is the most important piece to really Empower them in that way, because consent is actually a really low bar when it comes to a positive pleasurable, sexual experience, when we only expect that bar and they get to check the box. It's not enough. It isn't, it doesn't enter into the realm of ethical sex. It doesn't enter into the realm of what actual good sex is because they're growing up in this meritocracy in this performative culture. And so they think that sex is a eminence. When in reality, it's actually a felt experience. You know, if you look at the sexual science, you can have sex devoid of emotion but not feeling its internal motivation system that feels when it comes to two kids, they buy into the media's representation of how sex should be and there's no conversation that's taking place. Traditional gender roles are very much intact at the binary gender roles that we know about male and female and who should be dominant and who should be submissive and whose pleasure is prioritized. All those things. What I encourage kids first. I just, I help kids understand that. I just narrate a lot of my observations. I understand. And I know I'll say exactly what I just said to you about the media and buying into certain things and I described all kinds of things too. And they're like, how do you know that or oh, yeah, you know, in sort of a not, I don't want to say upbeat in a way that makes light of it, but just in a way that it just is normal and natural. It's okay to talk about this stuff. Nothing is going to happen. The sky isn't going to fall down. Like we're just going to engage in this conversation to really modeling or narrating. This is kind of uncomfortable in the little whack. It's a little weird. I know or let's just be straightforward about this, and really honest. This is what I observe. This is what I see. The kids are talking a lot. i hear about unwanted discomfort and pain in exploration and expression that kids want to be because they want to be with this person, but what's physically happening between them is not pleasurable or is very one-sided. It's not reciprocated. And it's really just about someone getting off and it's always assumed to that. It's this like cisgendered heteronormative context as well. And genital to genital intercourse, right? Like, so discomforts going to be expected that that's actually part of it and it's okay for some kids. So there's a lot we can talk about, but, It for the most part.
1:00.000 They're going to live into the heteronormative cisgender, peace for a moment because the teens and tweens today are growing up in a world where the normalizing of spectrum across the board is very much a part of their life. Hallelujah is fabulous. Right? But a lot of the adults in their lives, aren't there. Don't have the language. Don't have the knowledge. Can you say a few words about how adults? It's can educate themselves or can get themselves there in the conversation.
Shafia: Oh, yeah, for sure. And your books are fabulous when it comes to that sort of thing, right? Like inclusive language. There are some great resources that are out there. I love Scarlet, teen.com., I think Heather Karina is amazing. Isabel Rodman is tremendous. They have a wonderful book called. Wait, what? The two of them co-authored that, which is fabulous and you know, a lot. Sort of reading books that are inclusive of different genders and sexuality to pick up on the language. That isn't exclusive. A lot of atimes I find parents and and they're just defaulting to how they were socialized. Right, you know, are very gendered and binary and this heteronormative with their language and approach to these conversations, which in of itself can shut your kid down. If they feel like you don't understand what's relevant, what's going on to? They may be fluid or Exploring their own sexuality in some way and if they don't feel like you understand that or open to that or an ally in those spaces, then they may not feel like they can share with open honesty. And so, always, in the classroom. I will say that to kids. I will be very transparent to say, I'm going to model for you language. That is inclusive of genders of different sexualities and different ways by which people explore and express it. I always open my class with a broader definition. Live sexuality. I acknowledge the default definition. When people hear the word sex and it's really narrow and limited. And then I say, okay. So the invitation is to open our minds to something more inclusive, and here's what that means. And I roll out the circles of sexuality by dr. Dennis daily, which I think are phenomenal and we talked about the circles and why the circles and not on list and you know, that there's no beginning and no end because your relationship with your sexuality, is something that's ongoing. And a lifelong process, which is shaped by the people. You meet the relationships. You have the information you gather. So really kind of giving kids permission to explore with you and So really kind of giving kids permission to explore with you and understand and what you know so far. I think that's the important piece, like, what can we figure out so far? And for those of us who have long-term sustained relationships? It's the discovery in many ways that keeps them going. Wing, right? And that, we're constantly learning. And that's not always easy and joyful, right? Which I think kids also need to understand and to know is that it's a lifelong process and that there is this constant Discovery, and Discovery sometimes is really exciting and it can feel adventurous and wonderful, and inspiring and other times Discovery can also feel unpredictable. Like, you don't know what you're doing. Like, you don't know what you're doing. Kids? Need to navigate that I think is really important. I think I ripped it in a different direction and feel free to bring me back.
Vanessa: But I want to go back because not everyone has your fluency in your comfort talking about these things. And God. I wish we all did but we don't. And one of the things that I have found most effective, when I'm treading into territory, where I don't feel confident. I'm talking to kids is, I kind of just ask them like, well, how are You were referring to gender or how are you referring to sexuality or what's, okay, and your school right now? Because they know so much more than we do on this stuff and like it changes seemingly minute to minute. What's okay, what's acceptable, what's inclusive, what's non-inclusive? So for folks, who are listening, who are feeling pretty trepidatious about this, a great place to start is with some of the language. That should be mentioned earlier which is like using how you know, or I noticed. So like hey, I notice people are talking about gender differently in your class right now. What's going on? Like give me some language that I can use because I don't want to sound super lame when I talk about it. Right? So like using your approach, but applying it for people who don't feel So like using your approach, but applying it for people who don't feel all that confident talking about this stuff.
Shafia: Yeah, and that's what I mean by allowing kids to be experts in their own experience. .Right? They re, navigating a social landscape that day, only really understand the geography of. And so, I think that there's opportunity going both ways that you have the opportunity to build credibility, by modeling vulnerability, by trying not to know what you don't and trying too hard because kids have that the sensitive radar for that too. And then also allowing them to teach, you allowing them to be experts in their own experience to build confidence to engage in reflection and What's happening in that space, by just saying it. And I think that's a really important piece. I asked my kids especially with technology all the time to educate me. When I'm looking for concrete examples, to illustrate certain things in my work. Who do I go to immediately? The kids I work with. They are my greatest teachers and inspiration. Always have been all of my work. All of the scenarios. I used to teach everything comes from my students. They are. So generous and they know that and they have a power that we don't and that is to know what kids are up to when the adults aren't around and that's why we want them to share with open honesty. So we can engage in those conversations.
Cara: What is the super important details connected to that? Is that for adults who are afraid to let youth voice, guide them, you keep your head in the sand. Yeah, so it's not just that they can teach you but if you don't allow. Them to teach you, your now becoming blind to the ways of their world and you're stuck in this old model and you become more and more sort of disenfranchised. You're drawn further and further apart. So just letting them speak learning their language having the experience of listening and letting them guide. It brings you together. It's an unbelievable thing. Okay, here's a term that has so many different meanings depending upon whom you're asking. So I want to talk about Culture, can you tell us what adults think it is? Can you tell us what teenagers think it is? Can you tell us if you think?
It's as prevalent as everyone says it is, or seems to think it is, Yo, okay, hookup culture is what I would call think of a bear, and I'll get to that in a second. So, there's a really important Nuance difference between who's hooking up and what hookup culture is so adults and young people greatly. Nate, how many kids are actually hooking up, how many kids are actually sexually active. And we engage in this conversation with big mouths folks is that not all kids are like followed by a hormone monster, making them horny all the time like looking for sacks and like certain media to like, I love the show sex education. I think it is phenomenal, and it's the same thing. I take issue with the fact that it presents kids. As being these sex-crazed monsters who always wants sex. All the Time and are experiencing desire and horniness and all this sort of stuff. It's actually not true. And so there's that overestimation to and I think we can't underestimate the influence or the messaging that comes through media about hookup culture because in many ways, I think there's this sort of synergy that happens between how media is informing culture, how culture, and forms media how they're all, you know, it can get complicated and how its reinforced and social media in particular. I think is a place in which that happens hookup. Culture itself is pervasive. It is pervasive on any college campus. I've worked at or heard about. I think it's true of most high schools to the Hook-Up culture is sort of this glorified impersonal sex and the basic definition. I think that everyone could agree upon is engaging in some form of sexual activity, without any strings attached. There's no expectation of a relationship or anything like that. And so hookup culture is a culture that props up and glorifies performative impersonal, sex or sexual activity, for young people.And it typically is within a context of partying and substance use. And it's very, it's grounded in these very sort of traditional binary gender Norms that have to do with performative, sexuality, specific to male female. Some representation and of kids who do hook up. I find that hooking up really one. It's not very satisfying and when you look at the research, when you look at the surveys Student Life surveys on college campuses. In particular, it's really low. Who's actually getting anything out of a hook-up. And here's the piece, the overestimation, right? Like the average college. Senior only graduates with having hooked up only eight times half of those times with the same person and it's not that there aren't college kids, who don't have Vibrant relationship and sex lives that go along with them. It's the Hook-Up culture in particular. And when I find in high school is that hooking up is always public and it's typically about all kinds of things other than authentic connection. It's about social currency. It's about having something to talk with your friends about. It's about checking a box, to feel like you're sexually experienced. It's a place in which you can explore and express your sexuality and affirming ways. In terms of your identity. It can be very gender. Right. So if you're hooking up a lot in terms of masculinity, as well as femininity sort of how you're presenting yourself and navigating The Gauntlet to adulthood, and what that means. The language associated with hookup culture, is concerning to me, a lot of the time so recently, not recently actually anymore. But, you know, I started to hear about the beginning of the pandemic. So kids starting to talk about the amount of sexual partners. They've had the number as body count. I like body count. The only other time we use that term is during mass shootings and warlike. We're talking about intimacy and I bring that to kids attention and they're like, well, you know for a lot of students they'll say to me just the very Act of verbalizing and talking about these things have acknowledging them of creating scenarios together where they're actually taking a moment to look at what they're up to. And of itself is a very powerful thing for them.
Shafia: Yeah. I mean, I'll give you an example just to show the slam door versus peaking the door open. Plus, how do we use language? I said to my kid, my like he probably was early in high school. I probably was assuming he was doing a lot more than he was actually doing because of my own ingestion of the Hook-Up culture media frenzy, but I was like, okay. I just want you to know when you hook up with someone, you're supposed to talk and laugh and it's actually a lot more. Fun when you have like a friendship or some kind of like trust or relationship with the person that you're hooking up with and he kind of gave me the like, okay? Like the like the nod and the piss off five, but I was like, okay, I needed to tell in that fine, two years later. He came back to me and said, hey Mom. Remember when you said that thing about like, how you're supposed to talk and like it's more fun when it's someone, you know, he's like you were actually right. And it was like that was it? He came back and told me that I I did not delve into that any further and be like, oh, tell me more, you know, any of that. But that point about letting them get some information and then also have that lived experience of all of those values that you were talking about. She is so critical. It doesn't happen immediately and it doesn't change hookup culture and it doesn't stop them from Having sexual involvement with people with no deeper relationship, but it reminds them, that that is a possibility that that is a real thing. Do you think you were both using the same definition of the term? I'm just curious because you had a conversation, right? No, so that's a great point because I actually we talked about this on another episode. I think of hooking up as not sex. I basically think of hooking up as everything, but sex, but and she at you're going to laugh at this, both my kids. You and my mother think of hooking up as sex and it gets to the point and I'd love for you to spend a minute talking about this, about the importance of defining terms or when it's important to Define terms with kids, teenagers, young adults. And when does it not matter? Like doesn't matter if we all Define, what hooking up is, or is it not a big deal and I'm curious your perspective on that.
Shafia: I actually we're talking about hooking up. I do believe it is very important. So when it comes to relationship and sexual communication, I'll go back to think of a bear again, but hookup culture in talking about it and with your son, I think it's really interesting. So first of all, he's doing a really good job at being a teenager and you are a mom of a teenager, right? Like that's exactly how we hope those things are. And he beautifully Illustrated for us What I Hear tons of kids share with me is that they really do care what their parents say. And think even if it doesn't seem like they do, And to focus more on how they feel and less what they do. And I think that's part of what you pointed into, right? Like, it's supposed to be fun. Right? That's an emotional embodied, experience. And more and more. We need to connect kids to their emotional body to experience. Because the popular culture is constantly telling them to disconnect and in a very gendered way. So think of a bear is, if i go into a classroom and i'm starting to talk about sexual communication or relationship communication and we talk about being non-judgmental and you know, leading with things like i notice and yes, and how and what and avoiding why? because we've already made a judgment if we lead with why. And I'll say, okay, everybody think of a Bear, the animal a bear and everybody will think of a bear and I'll say, okay, so we could have a conversation of a bear, right? Like how many ears does a bear have? Do they have fur? How big are they? That kind of a thing. They'll say, but everybody, you know, the bear you see in your imagination. Tell me about it and I'll model for them by asking questions and they do it in kind of a fun way, right? Like, so I'll say Cara, tell me about bear. What is your bear look like?
Cara: My bear is small and stuffed and sits on a bed.
Shafia: And is there any more context to that one? Is it from? Is it from your childhood?
Cara: I love this because Vanessa is freaking out, because I know hers is like the grizzly bear.
Vanessa: It is the exact opposite. I don't know what that says about us. But like, literally two ends of the spectrum. Okay. Sorry.
Cara: Vanessa’s bear bear is going to kill her and to make me I feel so much better about everything me.
Vanessa: But yeah, go ahead, car you go.
Cara: So yes, it's my bear is informed, actually, it's informed by my kids childhood and that sort of the sweetness of stuffed animals that they had when they were little and I just that's where I go. You know, someone on this Zoom is a glass is half full. Someone is a glass is half empty, but yes, sorry should be a gone.
Vanessa: By the way I have a child named bear and I did. Not for once, think about my child named bear. I don't know what that says. We're about me as a parent but my bear is big and black and living and in the woods, but I'm not afraid of it. I'm not afraid of it, but it's like definitely going to eat all the snacks in my 10th kind of fan. I did not for one second. Think about your stuffed animal and I did not not for one second. Think about my son. I mean that's so fast. I mean should be a, you could unpack this for the next Like 10 hours, I'm sure. But that's an incredible illustration of the need to Define terms. Holy cow, right?
Shafia: Because in a classroom, you'll get panda bears pay and scientists are, you know, when it comes to pandas some, think they're raccoons and others think their bearers koala bears, which aren't even Bears. They're marsupials. I always say if I'm in another state and another school. I had gummy bears on the airplane. So, that's what I'm thinking of if you come from California or Colorado, which is where I Is teaching two weeks ago. I'm like, oh maybe Smokey the bear, or a polar bear on Ice. You get Grizzlies that are fishing in rivers for salmon. And so you say to the kids, like, okay. So what did you notice about all the Bears once we started sharing they are all different and if you're operating under the assumption that the bear you're talking about is a polar bear on, you know, Vanishing ice up in the Arctic and someone else is thinking about the little teddy bear. That's on their bed that represents childhood and See? And all these other things you're not agreeing on the same thing, even though you think you're having a consensual conversation and there's the legal responsibilities of consent and all those different things. But I feel like as parenting adults, you know, that's important piece, but we want to get to what's ethical. So, like, in terms of that we're engaging in romantic and our sexual relationships that actually enrich and fulfill us and so think of a bear and then I'll ask all the kids will what You know, contributed to the bear that you thought of. And ultimately we'll get to, you know experience. I was just in a national park, you know, whatever it is the teddy bear sitting right here and I mean, Zoom class whatever that is. And that further enriches, right? Like our understanding of how important this kind of communication is, and then I'll talk about context because that is context and context is everything in relationships. And if you're going to delve into that conversation about Incense context is important as is intimacy, right? So with kids, I'll talk about intimacy and as parents. I think we can bring attention to this to remember when we were younger and we read books before bedtime and that was our ritual, or if it was listening to music or singing the song. You know, that was a time that they could depend on where we gave our full attention where we took the time, you know, when we were about to go to bed where we took the time to, Pay attention to each other, to listen to each other, to have a shared experience that affirmed, our relationship and our connection before you go into sleep because for some children sleep is in a vulnerable state of being, right? And show that intimacy. That's the emotional embody, the experience of intimacy. So helping our kids understand what intimacy is. This is the counter-narrative we're creating ready to the culture. That's pushing things like hookup culture, and all that sort of stuff. And then context, I'll say to kids and they actually really enjoyed this one, wherever, I am I'll ask for the local street. That kids go hang out on. I'll say, okay, so you're with your buddies and it's after school and you've had this long hard academic day and you're walking down the street and you're engaged in horseplay. You're kind of like, you know, shoving each other. Punching each other a little bit. Everybody's on the same page. It means the same thing to everyone, everyone's laughing with each other. It feels joyful. Like you're relieving stress, like you're bonding like you're supporting each other after a long school day. Some Rando on the street sees what you're doing and thinks it looks really fun. So they are thinking I'm going to go up and do that. Same exact thing and they come right up to you and they start doing exactly what you've been doing and mirror all the horseplay. What's the emotional embodied, experience of that and kids in an instant will say surprise. No go away. Confusion anger, violation, fear, you know, all those things. And I'm like, okay, same exact thing, right? That person mirrored the horseplay same exact thing. Totally different context, context is variable, it shifted in a moment. That's why you always have the right to change your mind. So, you know, these are the ways we got to talk to kids about this stuff so that they understand it's more about the emotional embodied experience than like a chronology of events or what two peoples are actually doing with their bodies. It's all about how we experience it and connect with it.
Cara: I hear you drawing a lot of parallels rather than going straight. I don't want to say straight for the jugular because that sounds violent. But rather than going, like, straight to the point. I hear you creating a lot of parallels, a lot of metaphors, a lot of ways to talk about stuff without delving right into it and having them a listening for them, an emotional response, right? You talk about the emotional embodiment of different experiences, a listening for them that experience. In another way. And I think that's such a powerful tool for parents to think about when G, it's really hard for me to talk about blowjobs and anal sex, but I can talk about like, what does it feel like to do something that you don't feel ready to do? Or what? Does it feel like to do something that requires a lot of thought and preparation and communication, right? So like I love the way you're drawing. A pathway for people that's almost like kind of walking alongside the conversation rather. Other than making people feel like they have to delve right into the conversation.
Shafia: And it's actually not appropriate to delve for parents in a lot of those details about kids in ER and or exploratory sexual exploration, right? So I think that's important to acknowledge and it can be a simple as breaking down. The definition of respect. I will ask a room of 100 18 year olds. How many of you have been taught to respect yourself and others, your entire life? Every hand goes up and then I'll say Can with confidence, give me an accurate definition of what. That means, every single hand goes down and all of them. Look at me like a deer in headlights and I'll say, Okay. So let's build one together. What do you think? Because I imagine you have a feel, right? So the thing is though, a lot of kids have the Miss information that respect is treating people how you want to be treated. What if you're some touchy-feely person who goes around the world, thinking that like everybody wants to be treated in the same way where you can be really lovey-dovey, touchy-feely or whatever.And you're not that person who's into touch or you just come out of a pandemic and you're not back to touch or you never wasn't touch because you're asexual or Ace, right? Like what about that? So respect is actually treating people how they want to be treated and how would you know how to treat someone? You have to ask so it can be as simple as that for me. Dignity is a word that I am doing everything I can to resurrect and to bring into conversation with young people because dignity in the So embodied experience of dignity, I think is so important for all of them, and it simply means you've been treated. Like you have value. And I hope you also notice that in these metaphors in these ways. We're teaching kids how to think about this. It's the fish or teaching to fish, right, teaching them, how to think about these things. Giving them practice pointing them to the practice. They've already had in building a concrete bridge into other contexts. And I think that that's really where people go. Oh, Okay, I'm not talking about like the intricacies and mechanics around, you know, sexual exploration. Although that may come into play depending but it's really more about values and how we treat each other. Because that matters it's about educating people on how to treat you and listening for how other people want to be treated.
Cara: Which goes full circle to your how and why. Right?
Shafia: Right. And so it's really for parents. I just want to make this leap and make sure we get there is talk about media one. You're helping them. To deconstruct and to be filters versus sponges, right? And to it offers this, it doesn't feel as intimate and it shouldn't feel that intimate. When you're talking about sexuality with your parents.Right? So, it provides this buffer, but it can still be really substantive and meaningful when you dialogue and sort of uncover, the meaning of what you're seeing and how you're engaging in conversation with your kid about it. So, find out what their binge-watching watch a show with them and you're just dropping member, the collecting small moment. It's like you're just dropping a question, you know, do you think they both got to walk away with their dignity? Because and here's the thing and this is a mantra, my class like, for sexual exploration and relationships to be healthy. They need to mean the same thing to both people or their needs to be very clear conversation and consent around the fact that it doesn't and people need to articulate what it does mean to them and they need to agree in that way. But for young people in particular, I always want to focus with them because it's about safety, too. Whatever's happening means the same thing to both of them. And so I'll say that, I'll say, do you think that meant the same thing to both of them? Do you think they both got to walk away with their dignity? You know, that's the only question you need to ask in that moment. Right? Maybe then another week or two weeks later as you continue to watch the series and talk about these characters like they're real people right? Was that consent? It looked like it was wordless consent and that it was actually they put with it? Because I can't actually I'm having a hard time figuring that out. Right? Like, that's the stuff.
Cara: And I would imagine some adults, don't know the answer either because a lot of this teaching is new. Yes, we didn't write generationally. We didn't talk about it. So I'm listening to everything you're saying thinking, it's okay. If I don't know the answer to the question if I don't know if that was consent. That's okay.
Shafia: Yeah, and that's what I think we're trying to engage. Our kids in is sort of this self-reflective exploration to try and figure it out because what we know is that all relationships are expressed and manifest in individual ways. Is right? And I think that in saying it's okay, you're modeling the vulnerability, you're modeling the questions to ask yourself and how right, like to ask yourself and what are the ways in which you might know or not know. And actually in reality the only person who's going to know what the emotional embodied experience of a narrative is is the person who's in it. So helping our kids and ourselves. Because so, Mark crack, it does this amazing work at the emotional Literacy Center out at Yale. And he wrote this book permission to feel and He talks about how our vocabulary is so limited. When it comes to expressing the nuanced, emotional embodied experiences that we have that we, you know, default to good.Bad sad, you know the very Basics without including more nuanced language to get to the accuracy of how we're actually experiencing something and where we do in our bodies and what's a language for helping someone else, understand that. And so I think those Those are the things that we can focus on. You all do a whole parent education workshop and after an hour and a half, never even mentioned the words, vulva vagina penis, brass, whatever. And and they're like, oh, you know, it's a little disarming for people, which is what I'm hoping to do is to actually extend an invitation and to help people say that there are so many different ways that you can actually have this conversation and be responsible to what we're trying to do. Because we're all individuals. We all have different Comfort levels. We all have different capacities and abilities and that's one of the beauties of life. Right? And so it's really kind of finding the one that's going to fit for you and your family and your individual kid. I have three kids. They are also different. I'd like to think I raised them the same way they come out of the same house. They were totally different kids and I have this conversation in very different. Ways with all three of them and in the classroom to is in some of the stories, I think that I've shared is trying to talk about things in a way that allow for individuality where I'm not being prescriptive but calling on universal truths or experiences or things that kids can then see themselves within or can resonate with them. And I'll say I'm going to try and model. All kinds of different ways to talk about this. All kinds of different language. Because I want you to have opportunity and I want you to be able to think of what's going to resonate best with you. Because ultimately that's what we're hoping, right? Like is that they're going to be in relationships, that have a sense of belonging not fitting in and I think for teenagers that's really relevant like that. You want to be on the lookout for relationships that cultivate belonging where you feel like you can be your true self. Not ones that you have to fit into where you have to strategically modify Who You Are. To be a part of something because belonging is also something we cultivate in our hearts, right? So that no matter where you are, what you're doing, you know what it means to belong and what it means to be felt like treated with dignity and that That's what you can expect and have the right to in your relationships and what your partner's can expect and have the right to in relationship with you. And that's ultimately what I'm hoping. Parents are going to be talking to their kids about and the information piece. It's actually I I think a better place is in a classroom for them to get that kind of information about those things because it just makes it weird and awkward. Exactly right?
Cara: It's exactly, right. So when we wrap these episodes, we like to have a takeaway message, something that came from the conversation that just distills down the messaging that we either all hope to send or the lesson that we all learned. But for this episode, I'm wondering if we can do something. Slightly different, which is have a takeaway through the lens of my how this has all changed. So the prompt is given that. A lot of the language is different, the social norms are different. The laws are different. What take away can we give to the adults who are in the lives of these? Teens and teens that will hopefully resonate with them. And if teenagers are listening and we love when teenagers, listen, you know, hopefully we're giving good advice but we're very open to your advice here. So I'll start and say that my take away from the conversation, is a deep reinforcement of the fact that the language has really changed and it's not just the language around consent. I don't remember learning any consent language when I grab but it's also the language around sex and what it means, take your bear example and substitute the word sex for the word bear and people are thinking about 20 different things. When we asked what the word sex means and just walking into a conversation with that notion of what I might mean. Because of the way I learned it or my own life experiences. Is not necessarily where my kids or the kids that I'm speaking to are at and it's not necessarily what they mean. And so, you know, leaning into this concept of defining, the terms without my definition being, right? From this conversation. What I got is my definition is my definition. My job is to understand what the other person's definition is, as a starting point for a really great conversation, Vanessa. What's your takeaway?
Vanessa: Thank to take the pressure off of having always having really direct conversations and finding ways to bring out the kind of lived experience. The emotional reaction to the complicated aspects of intimate relationship, sexuality, vulnerability, all of those things without going right to the point. And instead finding other ways to talk about it. Think about it elicits those reactions. Ins in a kind of more subtle and gentle way, which is not my specialty settle the Nord gentleness. But in this case, I think it's a lot more effective than being super direct. And so, I love that. I've learned something new and wonderful from you today. Shafia, with that. And I'm and I'm grateful. Do you want to bring us home? Shafia with a kind of a last takeaway for our listeners.
Shafia: Sure, I think the takeaway from me is something I hope people are going to talk more about and that's love. So what we do know to from research is that and I'm happy to share that but I'm not going to say it right now, making caring common project, which is a fabulous resource. And a study called the talk. Is that our young people are grossly, unprepared for caring, and loving relationships. And are struggling to figure out how to engage in. In. This is a developmental task, that's in front of them right now, how to engage in a healthy sustained, intimate relationship in their lives. And what we know is that, as adults parenting, adults were doing great, in the sense that we have these intentions to check off the boxes and to talk about safe, sexuality practices, and the things we talked about today, but we're not doing enough of is talking about love. And what it feels like, what that emotional embody connected experience is when it comes to a caring and loving relationship and that love isn't perfect. And that love and relationship skills. Can sometimes be different things but that we need to talk about what were actually aspiring to and not so much what we're trying to avoid and be careful of. And so if we could just talk more about love and joy and how that balances with respect. I think that would make a tremendous difference in the lives of the young people that we love and care about so much.
Vanessa: I love that beautiful. You'll note to end on Shafia. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us.. It was I learned a ton and we know that so many parents and adults caring for kids will learn from all of your wisdom. So thank you.
Shafia: So, thank you for having me and your interest. It's been super fun.