Helping Children and Teens to Develop the Concepts of Consent, Respect, Pleasure, and Safety in Relationships, Creating a Foundation for a Healthy Relationship with Sexuality

In this episode, I speak with Shafia about her path to becoming a health and sex educator. She discussed how she had worked in case management and social work with kids who were experiencing dual and triple diagnosis, and a common theme was having a history of being harmed. She decided she wanted to try to help increase the prevention of such harm, and was fortunate enough to work at a great school, Marin Academy, where they allowed her the resources to create an in depth class where she could help the kids process the foundational concepts related to relationships, being respect, dignity, safety and pleasure.

Dr. Sutton: Welcome to Therapy on the Cutting Edge. Podcast for therapists who want to be up to date on the latest advancements in the field of Psychotherapy. I’m your Dr. Sutton Dr. Keith S , a psychologist in the San Francisco Bay area and the Director of the Institute for the Advancement Of Psychotherapy. Today we will be speaking with Shafia Zaloom who is a health educator, parent, consultant and author whose work centers on human development, community building, ethics and social justice. Her work involves creating opportunities for students and teachers to discover the complexities of teen culture and decision making with straightforward, open and honest dialogue. Shafia has worked with thousands of children and their families in her role as a teacher, coach, administrator, board member and outdoor educator. She contributed articles in New York Times , The Washington Post and numerous parenting blogs. Shafia’s book, ‘Sex, Teens And Everything In Between’ has been reviewed as the ultimate relationship guide for teens in all orientations and identities. It is one that every teen and every parent and educator and every other adult who interacts with teens should read. Shafia is currently the health teacher in Urban School in San Francisco and develops curricula and trainings for schools across the country. She was honored by the San Francisco Giants Foundation in 2018 for her work with aim-high a program that expand opportunities for students and their teachers through tuition-free summer learning in Richmond and was recently awarded a health teacher of the year award for 2021. Her work has been featured by many media outlets including the New York Times, USA Today, and NPR, KQED and PBS. Let’s listen to the interview.

Dr. Sutton: So, Hi, Shafia, welcome.

Shafia: Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Sutton: No thank you so much for coming on. So I know you, because our daughters go to the same school and we were just panic chatting and we were just I had known about the work you were doing as a health educator with adolescents. You are working at a school locally here and you also wrote a book called ‘Sex, Teens And Everything In Between’ with which is just right on point for what's going on right now especially with them what I am seeing with my practice. I really wanted to learn more from you about your work and first off, I would like to ask about how they got to do the work they have been doing today or how the evolution of their thinking.

Shafia: Well I've been teaching this for thirty years so it started a long time ago. And when I get out of school I sort of fell into being a social worker. I started as a social worker. I got a lot of on-site professional development and training. I was working with triple-double diagnosed youth who were in residential treatment as an alternative to preservation level eleven group home all work related, game affiliated and in treatment for drug addiction. So it was a pretty intense time and I was young and had a lot of energy and a really positive experience. The young people that I was working with I am sure you know can understand we’re all young people who experience harm as well as caused harm. And as I got to know the kids in my case load and get to work with them more I really sort of gain experience in what I was doing I realized that there were a few things that stood out to me and ended up, which is why they ended where they were and a lot of it had to do with resources, of course. A lack of positive adults and guidance in their lives and dysfunctional relationships as well as not having a very positive school context in which they could be school adults and find those things elsewhere. So when I started it, feel the burnout after several years of working so intensely with these kids. I thought I really want to go into prevention versus these interventions all the time. Because I was also thinking of my own life,something that is sustainable for myself and in my own life, relationships and education made the biggest difference in my own trajectory. That’s why I turned to health education. And health ed at the time was really sort of a new thing. People were pioneering health in the way that it is being taught now more so. I mean more so in a progressive beginning and I was hired by Marin Academy by …. Who is also a new head of school who have said I want a pyschodynamics, psychodimentional classroom in which teens can wrestle with real issue that they are dealing with on a daily basis not like the mean girls movie of the coach that said if you have sex you’ll get chlamydia and die . And so we built this program together and it was really exciting and that have sort of launched my career in education.

Dr. Sutton: Oh wonderful, great. So tell me you got a lot more than that in the dynamic that you are teaching and educating.

Shafia: For sure and she really empowered me to do my job. I do national consulting and go into a lot of schools that say they want this but they were not willing to put resources in every time, with scheduling and all this sort of stuff that needs to happen behind it. But we really did. It was great. It was super exciting in so many ways.

Dr. Sutton. I love your thoughts on health education and particularly adolescents. I did a lot of work with adolescents and I do a lot of family work and oftentimes parents these were little kids a few years ago, kind of nonsexual and now they are coming more sexual, maybe kind of dating or hooking up or they might be making tiktok videos looking, dancing around things like that and kind of helping adolescents navigate through puberty to help have a good healthy relationship, a sex positive relationship and at the same time also addressing parents concern and helping them to be a resource to really kind of be someone kids can turn to without kind of reacting and trying to culture or shame or so on. It’s such an important time. Tell me about your thoughts on how you approach this in working with the kids.

Shafia: Part of my responses is kind of model the language and the way by which I talk to young people as well as their parents about this because that might be helpful. And I think I just want to recognize I know the audience here is therapists , mostly therapists, and being familiar with therapy myself is therapeutic models. I feel like the sexuality conversation in many ways like this is a huge opportunity to teach as much as it is to engage in whatever type of therapy you are with the young person you are working with because they aren’t getting this education in many places in their lives so it serves them to actually through their sessions to acquire medically accurate sex positive information. When it comes to the approach I always talk about just to normalize things, right? That we are all sexual beings from birth to death. And even folks who might identify as asexual or ase and as kids start to express their sexuality in many different ways it can be really challenging for parents. We are also pioneers when it comes to sex positivity. many of us who have school age children and mine are a little older now . I have a daughter in college , a son who is in upperclassmen in high school and then a middle school kid. But no matter what their age we didn’t get these talks, we didnt have a lot of this. It’s a generational thing passed down . This socio-political context is pretty shame-faced and stigmatized. It is hard in this current culture to as well where adults also inundated or by this effortless perfection. I have to be the perfect parent, I cant mess up, I cant say wrong or vulnerability is weakness. It is not strength. All of these sort of cultural messages get in the way of our capacity to do these effectively with our kid. I think the first piece is just being really compassionate and generous and gracious with ourselves like I think that is so important. To take the time to think about our own sex education, what our values are , where they came from what we want to pass onto our children and what we want to change and make different. To get that clarity ourselves. To talk that through with our friends or partner or whomever so that we actually get some practice. That’s gonna be to our kids' benefit. You mentioned becoming an askable parent. I think that really starts when the kids are young. It’s never too late. If you have the opportunity to start with your small person in your home, I say go for it. People suddenly get nervous because they feel lost about sex, that’s inaapropriate they are actually not if you do it in age-appropriate way. If you have question about that across the developmental stages and how we talk about concepts of consent , what does that look like in the kindergarten classroom you know, things like before bedtime or during bath time with a young child we can talk about it. But I would say the …. Approach is to be straightforward and honest. To not be afraid of being positive. I think that there is a lot of misinformation that somehow if we talk about this then kids know and they’ll do. There is no .. evidence to support that whatsoever. In fact the inverse is true. If we empower the young people with the correct words with a normalized sort of vocabulary and context in which they can have conversation about their body and being in charge of their body and how they feel in their body when they are in relationship with other people, with family members, with friends. That kind of thing, you are really creating a very positive setting the stage for building upon. I always tell parents and I think this is how therapists know it, it’s really about scaffolding across time that you’re collecting moments. It’s the value of small victories. Then you’re hanging things on that scaffolding as you go along.

Dr. Sutton: building upon, kind of adding to it.

Shafia: and think layers, like an onion . I think also that sort of remembering that all people need an environment for your judgment and shame to share with their honesty that we want to as parents as well as what therapists are so good at is becoming experts in really awesome questions that inspire reflection and thinking. I think parents think that sex education is always about genitals and mechanics of sex, all that sort of stuff. It is not. The majority of healthy sexuality and the relationship is really about values , your family values . parents are the primarily sexual educator in a child’s life. They need to hear that. Kids and parents need to hear that. And that they are not the only ones. For therapists I always recommend in your space that you are creating as a safe space is making sure that there are clues that kids can pick up on that indicate that you are safe in regards to your sexual context. So do you have a rainbow flag somewhere? You have ‘love is love’ stickers on your laptop. Little details like that are what kids look for to tell them or this person may be accepting and safe. I think sometimes we miss that. And as people who provide guidance to young people I think those visual cues are very important once they're gonna be looking that. And how diverse is your own vocabulary when it comes to what young people are seeing in their feed. How are they talking about social justice? How they are talking about sexuality. What are the issues? How up to date are you with all of that information?

Dr. Sutton: Well, you know, you’ve said something really important that I particularly round up. Parents sometimes focusing on the genital information, one of the things that I teach therapists and training around adolescents it’s like helping go beyond the sex talk and about relationships and how we relate to their and how you tell somebody you like them, how you tell somebody you don’t like them. All these aspects kind of really expanding it from their because it is not just about the sex, it’s about in relationships. I think that’s such an important piece that sometimes people forget.

Shafia: I think that sort of default to what is scientific or clinical or medical. I think as adults we all want to sort of check those boxes. But what kids really need and I find this in my work with them is there is a lot of assumption that people make around kids understanding what values actually mean , what they look like,sound and feel like and practice in relationships. Especially if you have a young person who comes into practice in middle school and maybe you are using the word respect a lot that hasn't taken the time to say what your definition of respect. I have a room of about a hundred 18 year olds and I'll say , they talking about respect, ok how many of you have been taught to respect yourselves and others like your whole life. Every single hand goes up. How many of you are confident in giving me the definition of what that means. Every hand goes down. There’s a lot of misconception that somehow respect is treating people how you would want to be treated? But it is actually not. It is treating people how they want to be treated. So those nuances can make a difference for kids. They’ll say Shafia. I know what the definition of consent is. But what is that actually means for me on Saturday night. I don’t even know, my parents are constantly saying or people I know are constantly saying, respect men, respect women. What is that mean because if he is reading from cultural script it is not what we are thinking right? I find exploring with kids what that really looks and sound and feels like in their relationships in concrete ways, cognitively that’s what they are. It’s what’s gonna be most effective.

Dr. Sutton: I think that the issue of respect is so important because I don't know the correct definition but the way I think about it is respecting the other is to be an individual with different needs, wants , opinions and that they have the respect that they can exist and have self-worth in and of themselves. Like you are saying it’s not just treating them with how you like to be treated but finding out how they like to be treated. That they have the right to those opinions. Those things like you are saying. There comes consent of finding where you make that bridge between what your needs and wants are and what their needs and wants are or if that connects.

Shafia: I talk about a lot of being attuned to your partner and what that means? And the values, use respect as an example but I actually tend to sometimes I mean I talk to kids about that because they bring up that one a lot. And I try to expand the vocabulary because I find it really limited in accurately expressing emotional embodied experiences for all people, adults included . sort of that we have a default to certain trifecta mass and gregor, whatever. How to give them a nuance vocabulary but also to talk about very specifically things like empathy, dignity, i’m very big on resurrecting dignity in the word and concept. How to approach the whole class and how to ask someone out on a date and we talk about how success is not getting someone to say yes but means people getting to walk away with dignity. And the focus is really on that and it is a pretty basic concept of feeling someone treat you like you have value. I feel like that allows for a lot of individuality and differentiation amongst students or clients or whoever it is you’re speaking to with the concept of dignity. What that means and what is in the way and what the cultural narrative is dictating that sort of shapes and molds us in a way that doesn’t necessarily serve kids in that big developmental task that they have entering adolescents and what younger kids are aspiring to which is why needs to figure out how to have intimate sustained relationship. .

Hos: that’s right. I think that’s something you mention earlier the aspects of social justice I mean gender, sexuality, sexual violence, consent all these pieces are brought into social justice and sexual orientation, gender orientation. Thought we speak about those pieces because I think that’s also something that is oftentimes confusing for therapists and parents especially when kids are more fluid in their gender or exploring in their gender, their sexuality. I don’t know about your experience at all but I also been noticing my young kids in middle school, somebody have a kids that it’s almost heterosexuality is almost not being the norm anymore. Almost kind of starting out saying I don’t know what i’m gonna be rather than that i’m not gay more of just like being more open and kind of processing. I dont know if that , couple of examples here in marine county or whatever.

Shafia: I think that’s true. We live in the bay area sort of mecca when it comes to that things. In a lot of my work now that’s not to say that it isn't on the internet and the social media space and therefore kids in different places in different contexts maybe are not so anti-syshetero normative and more inclusive and co-friendly or if they live in a queer antagonistic sort of context that they are able to find affirmation to own it virtually . that’s also really hard because there is this world that isn’t your reality like in the virtual space and then your home, then your relationship with people in school or people who may not be as accepting. I do find that here all the time, I think it is really refreshing, it's something that I teach. Like that sexuality is actually an ongoing, our relationship with sexuality and understanding is ongoing relationship and as we journeying through life we are shaped and formed by the people we meet, the education we get , all those sort of things, the relationships we’re in. it’s really beautiful how kids are really open. I think it’s hard for some parents. Sometimes they are not quite sure what to do with that. And I see a whole fraction of parents who want to support but don’t know how to talk about it and then just default to quiet which also communicates a message of don’t intend but is there. Other parents who are so excited to be the supportive parents that they almost ascribe the identity to their child based on inkling that they are exploring and questioning. I think it’s so important for all of us to just let that reveal itself, create space and give the kids a reflection like tools and questions to ask themselves to allow that to be revealed. In a way that feels like their truth. And I always tell parents depending on the developmental stage just because the kid says , i’m bi, or i’m gay, or i’m fluid or whatever it is , depending on their age, that is very developmentally appropriate to say in a way that feels like it’s permanent. But we know that it might not be because developmentally there is so much left to take place and happen. I think for parents, it’s figuring out how to, their own feelings, making sure they have appropriate boundaries, and being accepting and just open and seeing and creating their spaces so it can be revealed and uphold at the direction in some ways of the kid. Allow the kids to be an expert in their own experience. I think if we give kids that option it is super helpful. The young people I talk to and work within different states and different contexts especially in more politically more conservative sort of cultural frameworks. It’s still, it is so hard. A lot of transphobias, there’s a lot of homophobia. There’s a lot of misogyny. The hypermasculinity that’s out there.it can be tough and a lot of kids also are just reading from cultural scripts. Without a lot of intervention or questioning that is not criticizing right? And not questioning in a way that’s judgmental and asking why? The other just say, so what’s coming up for you? What can you tell me about this? Helping you understand that, yeah, just be super curious.

Dr. Sutton: I think it is also hard, for a lot of things that I do I integrate attachment based therapy for adolescents and helping the kids to talk and helping the parents to listen to activate that attachment instinct.in conversations around sexuality, it’s can be so hard for the parents, I remember one family I was working with, the mother was listening and the daughter she was on dating this guy. She said, what do you like about him? She said, he’s hot. And she said, oh, that’s nice, anything more about him?. He’s a jerk. He treats me really bad but he’s really hot. And she kinda sit there and say, oh tell me more about that. And really intrude on the conversation just by really listening and created some space and her daughter talking about her whether she want to be or not. But oftentimes many parents' anxiety goes up. We want to protect and we got scared. Of course we want to check that things are safe. But oftentimes it’s hard to create that space and also as therapists some things are parents, mama bear, papa bear whenever it might be kind of kicks in. and so finding ways to create that space to help them process and support.

Shafia: yeah, and it can really be challenging to make that call on how much do we allow a kid to pass them independence and agency and make mistakes we know negative consequences are down the road, right? To learn by themselves and or to ask them questions to get them reflect and interject our own sort of thoughts and opinions whether they may be headed whether it’s in their best interest . it’s a tough call. I think still navigating this pandemic, post-sheltering them in place, sort of things, and still seeing the unravel at that. The drama, the death by a thousand cuts. I have a daughter who is into class of spring 2020 who is a graduating senior.and just the mental health issues, the arrested development, pronouncing the kids to catch up with. The lack of social interaction and all learning that comes with that. The morality clinic that recesses not happening for so long. I’m just getting so many inquiries in my consulting practice in many different states and across the country to teach and talk to people.so many people are scrambling. So many folks at school , to say kids need, we need to teach them how it is ok to touch us as their coming to community in most physical ways again. What’s ok, what’s not. How do they flirt? And I think having been in so intensely in the digital space for so long because of Covid. I used to tell kids you have to think of the digital space as an extension of your personal space. When it comes to self-regulation , making decisions about what to post, how to treat people because everyone matters. All those sorts of things. And not hiding behind perceived anonymity or disappearing and not be there so there’s no consequence. I find that shifted because personal space was digital space all along.

Dr. Sutton; Almost like an extension of themselves.

Shafia: Yes. and now they are in physical real time space with each other. And they’re realizing they are using the skills they have in digital space that they own. It won’t work in real time physical space. It’s a lot.and for so many kids too I find that social shifting that tended to happen in adolescence during the 9th and 10th grade in finding your people and your friends and then settling into that in your 11th and 12th. it ‘s still happening. Kids being iced on a friend group, feeling like they have this deep relationship with someone and then now it’s like meh. And sorry for how they are trying to figure those things out. They have no agency for a lot of kids because who they were social worth was determined by how covid conscious your parents were. So this is interesting to see how the masses sort these things out. It’s all great they can be in school and depending on where you live.our school wearing masks which I think is hitting us rush hold on. But there's a lot to sort through and talk to them about.

Dr. Sutton: Yeah, definitely. Sorting all those pieces out, interesting I was talking to a second-grade teacher the other day about the effects of the pandemic. She was saying one thing that she has noticed is at least those kids seem to have more compassion and are more patient and flexible than others she has experienced. Almost like a by-product, this generation has had to like switch and move like these very big changes. Like you are saying I imagine the effect one must have on sexuality and sexual development especially if these kids are only online, right? And there’s a lot online. Particularly not having those conversations, in being there with their flirting, or things like that getting some distorted ideas around sexuality and all those aspects.i wondered too like you know I just finished reading ‘Come as you are’, Nagaski’s book . amazing, love it . It’s so good. I’m actually in the process of going towards the … certification. But the so many myths, or so many misunderstandings that happen for so many people or so many adults have. Because they didn’t have this information. As younger at, pleasure at different stages, not just orgasm. Being able to look at context effects or the concordance between genitalia and our brain and all these kinds of things that are so oftentimes not connected or not known education. tell me a little about that, especially it mostly affects female born women or different gender identified because oftentimes also of course boys and men, but oftentimes there’s a lot of miscommunication or myths or really untrue … that are oftentimes told to create these confusing contexts.

Shafia: yeah, for sure. A lot of kids land in my class. They have to unlearn before they can relearn a lot. Emily is one of my personal rock stars just so fabulously, so I have so much of her work in my own teaching. One thing I like is that she has this metaphor in sexuality which is the garden. She talks of the garden and I always think it is important to empower young people when it is age-appropriate and context-dependent and context-appropriate about how we all have sexual accelerate and how we all have a sexual break and what that means and how that factors into things but also the garden.i love the garden because it gives kids something concrete to actually something to be able to talk about. . a lot of times it can feel too intimate, too personal that if you have something like oh I created this collage which is my garden and this represents this represents that. Emily talks about how you can go become an adolescent begin to become older and take more responsibility for your sexuality. That you can go row by row and actually look and see what’s been planted there. What you want to put in. I always talk to kids too about what’s the criteria for someone coming into your row, what can they take, what can they leave. All these sorts of things actually adopted that with her permission of course for my book that passage. In then the concordance then I think for all genders is so important especially if you have young people watching porn so pervasive these days. Because I got kids who come in who are confused because I mean porn is a whole conversation and the sexual science of it and the delivery mechanism and the reward response. And I’ll get some kids who have built up tolerance when it comes to the porn they're watching so what they have to watch to achieve arousal or masturbate in many ways is super intensely misogynistic aggressive and violent and they’ll come in and they’ll be scared. And they’ll say, is this what I like? Is this what I want? In my class, I always talk about arousal non-concordance, and a great example of illustrating that is random erection in math class, something sexually relevant. When I talk about sexually relevant part of your brain and the desire and wanting part of your brain. And most times they are aligned and sometimes they are not. Maybe something sexually relevant happens in math class, hormone surge or your pants pressing on your genitals in some way. And your brain goes, oh sexually relevant. But the other part of your brain is like not in the middle of math class. And it is huge also in a gendered way when it comes to sexual violence because we used to promote this idea that boys could not be assaulted if they have an erection during the time of sexual activity. And if there are some sort of sexual stimulation or sexually relevant happening that does not mean the boy necessarily want that to happen. So there’s a lot of important, very relevant ways by which we need to talk about concordance with kids. And why it is much more important to pay attention to people’s words than their genitals. You know there’s that piece. And then the other part of the pleasure, you know I always talk about sexual accelerator, the sexual break really about allowing, alleviating the breaks so the accelerator can go on its own instead of ramming on the accelerator. And the end of it all which is the cultural narrative is not necessarily orgasm for all people. And that many types of bodied people enjoy a lot of other ways by which we explore the aspects of our sexuality that have yet to be discovered and what a joy that can be. I think talking about pleasure, balancing responsibility and pleasure is so important for young people. Empowering them with the correct information and that requires for busy parents, I know who that is, we both do, right? To have to educate themselves a lot that they didn’t get. And part of what motivated me to write my book was I would always go traveling to different schools and different states and the questions were always the same. Not only for kids but also parents and then parents would come up to me after the talk and say, thank you so much, I learn so much and this is what’s going on with my kids. Do you have any suggestions? And we discuss and say, wait a minute and then turn the record on their phone and hold it up to my face. Because they needed language and they needed strategies, and say how can we create like a handbook for folks with it comes to these stuff with all the essential elements that in my own experience in teaching thousands of kids about these stuff, listening to them, hearing all their stories which is the crafts of the book. What parents need to know, what are the questions they can ask, where are the resources to go for information because we are busy.

Dr. Sutton: I got your book and when I first look into the table of context, it starts out with consent, yes means yes, what we mean when we talk about consent. And then chapter two when we talk about legal rights, sexual harassment, and assault. Then chapter three, you’re good, teach consent and keep it sexy, all these aspects is always so important, and then getting into expectations and gender-pressure form and love, the pleasure of sex. All these kinds of aspects really help parents to have these conversations and again it is extremely helpful for us to be able to think about these and have these conversations. Its focus on these are the necessary conversations that parents need to have with their kids.

Shafia: I really tried for anyone who works for children to reserve my audience as well as kids coz the second half of every chapter frequently asks questions I get from kids wherever I am teaching this stuff. And I answer in very brief concise ways as if they had raised their hands in my class and I really intended, the audience for that is the kids also for adults who don’t know that information. To model the language over the years I found to be age-appropriate. Appropriate for adult-child relationships and that is accessible to kids. And just the right information whether they are tuning out communicated the important points that need to be shared. I find that that's really the challenge for all of us with young people. For therapists in particular I think just having some that language is a little more current for young people, I think for young people is also something I just want to make a plug for and I don’t know if therapists are also doing this much. Because the focus is so much on the internal life of a young person, how it is important to understand and know what is your client and patient is binge-watching . what are they watching on tv because we really underestimate the power and influence that that has and the opportunity it affords to talk about these issues by talking about character as if they are people and the values associated relationships they have.

Dr. Sutton: I was thinking that myself because I always see them with my own kids. Some of the conversations have been helpful with watching videos. There’s the oprah one where’s there's a therapist talking to a mother and a child and talking about sex. Watching that with my kids and then talking about that kind of helps stimulate that conversation or there was a good one on ‘’my kid would never do that’’ dateline 2020 where, somebody was, ‘’hey come and get a ice cream truck with me’’ and so on and there were cameras seeing with the kids do it or not and then watching that with my own kids and then having these conversation around safety and all those aspects. But like you're saying, finding out about the characters that they’re watching,stories and so on, learning about those as therapists because that can be a medium for talking about these issues.

Shafia: Hundred percent and it really helps kids if you are talking about consent education serving media in my class all the time because that's the primary way by which young people really learning about certain gender dynamics, certain relationships and personal dynamics and things like that. We never want to create a situation in which kids feel like they have to have experiential context to participate in a meaningful way in a dialogue. And it wouldn’t be appropriate or responsible to ask kids nor would I want them to share about their personal experiences if they have them in a public way or in a classroom. And we do have a level of confidentiality but not one that is setup in which kids are doing whatever but more about expecting kids not to exploit each other and trash each other, etc,etc. And they're constantly feeding me these clips that I use in class so that’s our shared experience which is far more appropriate and easier to have substantive dialogue about and to say, ok ’did they ask for consent? Let’s talk about context?’ Context is everything in a relationship. Did they get to walk away with their dignity? What made the difference? Is there a gender dynamic going on. If you substitute a gender with some other social identity will something shift and change? Is there a double standard? All those things that i think are great tools for young people to have a provide insight how kids are thinking about what they are seeing. What they are watching, what their peers are also watching that they didn’t talk about. The experience of the binge. When we were younger you have to wait a whole week before you watch the next episode. But if you are watching a show and there’s some content that are very deeply concerning. That’s out there a show and you’re watching a show and your brain is developing and it is a multi-sensory experience and the delivery mechanism, typically through computer, phone or something like that there’s a dopamine reward response. Let’s talk about that, what is that. Bringing that into consciousness I think is huge. I think it’s a nice way to balance out sometimes. And maybe provide a little levity or relief if things are getting heavy and deep not to derail if your on a trajectory with your patient in getting to something what it’s gonna be a revelation or epiphany or like in those aha moments.but rather sometimes i feel kids need that. To be able to access those other parts of themselves. Because it has become such a huge part of their lives. For sure.

Dr. Sutton: Definitely. I wondering about it, we were talking a little before we got on about also around a lot of the issues around consent and around abuse. You made a good point about the non-concordance with abuse and boys interactions because one and four girls, one in sex in boys end up experiencing abuse. More reasons to be talking to kids about it early because a lot of these oftentimes happen early. But also, I worked with a lot of kids, young adults, adults who experience trauma, experience trauma through violence, in their relationships, through with other kids their own age, and some ended up feeling accused, kind of basically having to leave a school because there’s an issue that came up in such end and the school not holding. On the other side someone really being heard by another person, talking and then again the school not really holding that confidentiality. another one. Also feeling to leave after being a victim of violence.

Shafia: You know, my curriculum has evolved in different ways around this based on what I'm hearing from young people and what I'm seeing in terms of generational shifts around this conversation and what’s happening in the greater cultural dialogue as well as how they’re taking what they are seeing and applying that to their own lives, especially in the digital space. Because there’s things like cancel culture, all these stuff which are really intense and has some very long-lasting consequences for all children, whether you’re the person experiencing sexual harm or you’re the person causing the sexual harm there’s a lot to it. I think we can be very confusing, it can be very confusing for young people and it’s in their best interest for adults to actually draw distinct differences, a distinction between consent as being an essential component of being attuned to your partner so you can experience pleasure in a really responsible way and enriching, loving, caring, reciprocal, proud and authentic connection even for just physical gratification. And there’s consent. I like to use a lot of analogies and metaphors because the kids I work with because they’re such concrete thinkers and a lot of these are abstract concepts, right? And things they are just trying to figure out. There is consent within the context of sexual violence. What is the correct appropriate language, what does that actually mean? What are the legal responsibilities? What are the ethical responsibilities? Because I feel like when I’m teaching I want, consent is fundamental and essential. It is so important. It is what makes sexual activity legal. It protects the fundamentals of human dignity. And we want to teach our kids beyond consent. Consent in many ways. We have to evolve out of this focus on the semantics around consent. To encourage kids, they got to understand that’s the floor, not the ceiling. Bring me to spiral beyond consent to ethical and good sex. not good sex in a way that the popular meaning puts it out but I have activity I take them through to understand what good sex is actually is and they all actually don’t necessarily need to have actual experience to understand expression, it is communication. It is like all these really good conversations. So when it comes to, I tell them, we got to inspire beyond just not a felony. This is so important.

Dr. Sutton: I think we need to, I saw a tik tok on something I think a comedian or something saying like, I don't want consent, I want enthusiasm. Consent just like, ok, you can do this. That’s not what we’re going for like, yes, I would love to do that with you. Just kind of want to be going for that somebody is excited. That want to do these things rather, ok I’ll do this.

Shafia: You can have a consensual sexual experience that is disappointing, that’s embarrassing, that’s boring, that’s regrettable like all there’s things too. So I think it gets really confusing for kids with some of the ways we approach this conversation. And it's both ends that feel a bit daunting as well as exciting, right? Because we completely want that forged, we want them to have caring, loving relationships and we all know there are decades of research that tells us it is not GPA in school that is gonna determine the quality of your life, it’s the quality of your relationships. This is such an important piece. And so when it comes to consent, you know, context is everything, right? Context will talk about for kids a way to help them figure this out. Let’s say you and your friends were walking down whatever street and you had a long academic day, you are trying to blow off steam so you’re bossing around. So you kind of elbowing each other, poking at each other a little bit, there's banter going back and forth. Everyone is on board with the laughter, there is laughter, there’s joy, it feels like a stress relief. It’s bonding because you have a shared experience. It’s joyful, right? That’s the worst play it’s happening. Let’s say there’s random on the street who sees what’s happening amongst you. And say, you know what, I want to do that too because that looks awesome and they come right up to you and they start doing the same exact thing you’re doing with your friends. So what’s the emotional-bodied experience of that? Surprise, getaway, violation, all these things. It is that same thing. That person is doing the same thing saw you doing with each other. But it is a different context. Context is everything when it comes to emotional-bodied experiences. I think having these conversations around sexual violence because that’s also how you can revoke consent at anytime because context is very important.

Dr. Sutton: That is the powerful effect of consent and all these aspects so significantly. Well I could talk with you all day but it is such a huge topic and ii really appreciate you taking the time today and I know it is really helpful and definitely encourage folks to read your book and read more about it and how conversations again, you’re talking about so many different ways to expand this conversation beyond just here is the information about sex and so on, because it is so big. So i really appreciate thank you so much for taking the time today.

Shafia: Oh, thank you for your interest. I enjoyed it.

Dr. Sutton: Great. Thanks a lot! Take care.

Shafia: You too. Bye.

Dr. Sutton: Bye.

jessica bonin