Parenting Beyond the Headlines: Talking About Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between
Podcast Interview [Listen here]
Podcast Interview Transcript
Sarah Cody (00:05):
Everyone and welcome to the latest Parenting beyond the headlines podcast. We're so glad you're back. I'm Sarah Cody here with my friend, Amy Alomar.
Amy Alomar (00:13):
Hi, welcome to the show today. We're going to be talking about sex and teens, which is an obviously sexy topic. We've seen reports of assault. We've seen reports in the me too movement, and recently a story of a girl reporting, a rape at her school publicly and being accused of bullying, sort of like the big flashy headlines. And it's, it's more nuanced than that. You know, kids and intimacy and developing trust and relationships that starts somewhere. And we wanted to kind of dig in and talk about those relationships and we're excited to be joined by Shafia Zaloom. Um, she's a health educator and an author of the new book, 'Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between'. Welcome, Shafia.
Shafia Zaloom (00:58):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Cody (01:00):
So, you know, just start, what are you finding in your work with adolescents?
Shafia Zaloom (01:06):
Oh, that's a big question. And I just got out of class and, and we were having conversation and talking about, um, how gender roles and gender stereotypes are really powerful and influencing how kids think and feel about sexuality in particular. Um, also this topic of consent, you know, because I have this consulting business and I go to different States and teach, you know, different kids in different communities, as well as have a regular community where I am. I'm a teacher and working with students all the time, it can be somewhat confusing for them. I think that, you know, most of them at this point, understand what the definition of consent is. And as parents in different ways, we've been talking about this for a long time. However, what that looks sounds and feels like within the context of an actual relationship and all those nuances and complexities can be really challenging for young people. And so I think that's where they need the most practice. And in many ways, what I find is that this is really about, you know, it sounds like it's about consent. Um, the majority of my work, but it really is about focusing on healthy sexuality. Um, the cultivating, the courage to connect, not only as parents and talking to our kids about these topics, because there is so much out there right now that they're exposed to. Um, but also the courage to connect for them, to connect with each other, um, given this age and technology and how they communicate and relate to each other and all those different things that now intersect with how kids build relationships.
Amy Alomar (02:49):
Is this topic much more complicated these days because of what you just mentioned because of technology, because porn is available to kids so easily, you know, any time also because of the me too movement is, has this conversation shifted and become a little bit more complex?
Shafia Zaloom (03:09):
Yes. And so I think there's some fundamental aspects of it that have transcended time, certainly in terms of all young people that I come into contact with long for connection, they really do. I think that what's changed is how much permission they have and how they're socialized to actually go about trying to do that. That has shifted and changed. So like you mentioned, there's social media, certainly and digital devices and sort of that delivery system by which they are, um, not only maintaining, but trying to build relationships so how they communicate and connect through these digital devices, which is different. And then also what I call the pornification of our culture and how, um, you know, internet pornography has become so accessible and also very extreme in terms of the industry and in many ways the default sex education for this country. So I think that those two things in particular are pretty, um, you know, media examples of what has shifted and changed in the landscape.
Sarah Cody (04:14):
And so if you could just kind of give us a few tips about, you know, either limits we want to set or conversations we want to have, and obviously your book is riddled with those conversations and the topics, but, you know, I'm thinking about the easy access, not just pornography, but like, it seems like many of the shows on TV that my kids want to watch our TV, um, which, you know, I'm, I'm hesitant, you know, some of them have content that I think is really valuable for us to watch together. Um, at other times it's very uncomfortable or I feel like I've shown them too much. So in my home that's become a conversation of like, this is life and you know, this is sexuality as part of human nature and kind of a, this is what I hope your life will be like, and this is what I don't know, but it'll be, you know, kind of using as comparison, but talk to us about that. Like should, what do you do with it all out there? Easy access, short of pornography, which is a whole another topic.
Shafia Zaloom (05:08):
Yeah. And that really doesn't come into play until a little bit later. So how we talk about this across the developmental stages is different depending on the age of your child, right? So when kids are younger, so if you have an elementary school age person in your house, you know, and you're talking about this, the focus is body autonomy, um, narrating emotional experiences for kids that they can see in other people's faces. So they can pick up on social cues, emphasizing how we treat each other matters, um, and how they can giving them language in the word. So the accurate terms for all body parts, right? Like we do that with all our body parts, except for sometimes, um, you know, genitals and sexual reproductive anatomy and things like that. Like that should just be included. We don't come up with 10 different names for a knee. Um, and so, you know, use that as a guideline for the rest of the body as well. Um, and just opening those lines of communication so that when your kid is exposed to media and kids of all ages are exposed to different kinds of media, to different extent, just engage in conversation, make observations. Um, you know, don't ask why so much because why questions tend to have judgment in them? You've already made a judgment. So young people, kids, they respond better to the what, the, how, the, where, and that also inspires reflection versus just coming up with a yes or no answer and start to get your kids practiced in talking about the media they're exposed to. Oh, and you could say, I noticed, what do you think about that? Did you notice those sorts of things? How did you, Oh, you know, how did you think that person treated that other person in some show you watched, even if it's animated at the middle school level, it starts to shift kids usually get puberty education. Hopefully I'm only half of the United States, um, actually requires that, uh, sex education be a part of high school education. So puberty education, you know, is sort of up in the air. Um, but they should be getting puberty education talking about what respect, you know, those values, those fundamental ethical pieces that are so important. So empathy, mutual, respect, integrity, um, and what those things actually mean because you live find there's a lot of misconception out there about what that actually means, because we don't always take the time to explicitly talk about that and use examples for kids who are very much concrete thinkers, right. Cause they're in middle school. Um, and then pornography certainly can come into that conversation. The average age now, by which a kid comes across porn is eight years old.
Sarah Cody (07:51):
Oh, wow.
Shafia Zaloom (07:52):
Yeah. It's really young. Um, and that's usually, you know, cause now kids, Google things, a lot of kids have access to devices, digital devices, not everyone has controls, um, on their, you know, networks and whatnot. And so a lot of times kids are just, you know, looking for funny toys, right. Um, and they'll put that into Google and things will come up, maybe at, you know, your parents' house, you have controls. So kid funny toys come up when they do that. But then you go to your grandparents' house and they don't have controls and you put that in and something else comes up. Um, so it's having an awareness of that digital citizenship, how to talk to your parents and to come to your parents, when you see something that you don't think is appropriate for you online, and kids have intuitions. So talking to them about that, um, building empathy. So you're talking a lot about appreciation and gratitude. This is all contributing to a kid's capacity to practice consent and then high school is this whole other thing. Um, yeah, that's what I was just going to go. Cause those tips that you just gave us, it sounded what was arranged from a small kid through like a middle school, once they're in high school and sexist, perhaps, you know, they're going to get their first serious girlfriend boyfriend and this perhaps on the landscape, how do you shift talking about it in terms of, you know, it's, it's a real thing out there for you now? Well, so the American Academy of pediatrics has kids exposed to 14,000 sexual images a year. Um, and that's a lot, they are inundated. So to be clear, I think it's important to say that just because we're talking about this so explicitly in the high school years doesn't mean that kids are necessarily doing this, but they're not necessarily experimenting. And it's been shown, um, you know, through research that young people, as well as adults tend to overestimate how sexually active some kids are. And we're actually in a sexual recession right now when it comes to young people in their sexuality and exploring with someone else. Um, so that's important to note first and foremost, however, we have to be talking about it because yes, some of them may be exploring and it is developmentally appropriate to explore as long as it's on their own terms and they are individually ready for that. Um, and they're certainly exposed to it. Um, some kids also are probably watching porn and masturbating to it. We know that to be true. Um, and so, you know, in those moments, it's really important for us to be the askable parents. So to be focused on values because parents are really the primary sexuality educator in a child's life. And they're not the only one, but if they're not talking to their kid about sex, they're the only one that talking to their kid about sex because of all the sort of references and images that are coming in through the media, their friends, um, you know, all that sort of stuff too.
Amy Alomar (10:50):
So if you want to be approachable and you want to be, what did you just call it? The talkable parents.
Shafia Zaloom (10:53):
The askable, parents. Yeah.
Sarah Cody (10:57):
Is it important for us to not freak out because, and we've heard that in other podcasts that when they ask some scary or tell us something about their friend even, and you're like, because this is new territory.
Shafia Zaloom (11:10):
Yeah. Like how to actually do that, do saying that in doing that are two different things. Now you said than done, right? Because we do want to keep freakouts to a minimum as much as we can. It's total totally normal and natural as a parent to have that kind of reaction. And that's truly what it is. Um, and that's why it's important. You know, it's not one big talk, you're collecting moments. It's the value of small victories. It's layering this, you're thinking like scaffolding so that you can hang things on the scaffolding later. Um, it really is small moments. It's not one gigantic talk. Um, and so we want to start these things so that when something comes our way, we want to start them way before and build, you know, a pathway for this so that when something comes up, it doesn't feel like it's huge. Um, and so, you know, I suggest keeping it values focused. I think media, you know, a lot of media and a lot of shows that kids are watching is addressing teen sexuality in a way that's never been seen before. Um, so shows like big mouth, uh, sex education, and then there's others that are controversial, like 13 Reasons Why, Euphoria, um, there's a good one. It's called Penn 15. So it's really addressing these topics. And I find that for parents and kids, um, media, whether it's a still image or something you hear in the car together on the radio or a song that comes on or something you're seeing on TV, it's a real opportunity to notice, ask questions about what kids observe, um, et cetera that have to do with sexuality.
Amy Alomar (12:45):
Talk about the sexual recession. Why is that, is that a reaction to what's going on in the world or reaction to disease? What is it all about?
Shafia Zaloom (12:57):
You know, that's an interesting question. There's many theories that are out there as to what's leading to that. Everything from, um, kids are the reason why they're not exploring sexuality with each other is because they're home on their devices and not in the company of each other. And that that's the way by which they're trying to connect. Also that kids tend to evade vulnerability, um, healthy vulnerability too, because they don't have the resilience to deal with potential rejection or the skills to actually engage in interpersonal communication with peers, um, comfortably that digital devices in some ways, although they are great tools, um, have enabled kids to not engage in practicing those really important skills of adolescents, which have to do with dealing with awkwardness, um, you know, initiating a friendship, building trust, effective communication, dealing with someone who doesn't agree with you, you know, and a device kid will just turn it off. What I see kids now do is they just look down as if they've turned off their device, um, when they need to disengage. Cause they don't feel they can go further with the conversation.
Sarah Cody (14:10):
So talk to us a little bit more about that because we had another podcast of talking about, you know, devices, we've had a couple actually, and you know, there is some goodness to them that, you know, they allow, well obviously technology is information. Um, but also that kids can connect in ways they wouldn't otherwise connect, but how do we teach these social and intimacy skills? Um, you know, we're parents, we, we can do it. We can have phone free times. We can do that. We can talk about relationships and all the things that you mentioned before. But, but what else, you know, is there some other way?
Shafia Zaloom (14:45):
You know, talking about intimacy is interesting because a lot of people, kids included because this is they're socialized. Think of intimacy, the word intimacy, and suddenly it's romantic and or sexual intimacy. And then it's so separate somehow these relationships from the other relationships we have in our lives. And that's actually not true. Um, when I talk to kids at the high school level about the different types of relationships that are out there, and they're curious about, you know, exclusive relationship that includes love, um, you know, say what's the definition of that. And ultimately we come to the conclusion that it's qualities of best friendship plus romantic and our sexual desire. That's the only thing that's really different. Um, and so I talk a lot sexualities and expression in a lot of ways. So kids who are engaged in effective communication have had really good talks, not even about sex, but other things are able to relate to what, you know, good conversation and connection looks sounds and feels like. So when we talk about intimacy, it's like when we would cuddle and read our kids' bedtime stories, because we've created the time to actually pay attention to each other, to connect that feels safe, that feels secure and reassuring for kids. So that feels like they can then be okay when they enter sleep, which for many of them feels vulnerable. That is intimacy. That is beautiful intimacy. And so many kids have already experienced that. So drawing a concrete connection for them, helping them to see that actually, you know, what intimacy looks sounds and feels like intuitively because we've been raising you with it all along that that's what we want to actually aspire to and have in our relationships with other people within a sexual context. So it's really about creating a more holistic understanding of sexuality as integral to our overall wellbeing. In some, instead of something that's been seen as like so separate and grounded in like shame, historically taboo, sex stigmatization, body shaming, the oversexualization and objectification of young people that is sex, negative culture that is grounded in a sociopolitical history of shame. And so, um, we have to work to help kids see it as something more integral and normal and healthy to our overall wellbeing. So like I'm a sex positive sex educator, which means that I believe that P you know, people's choices that they make as long as they're consensual legal and safe are okay there, you know, that everybody has their right and individual people make different decisions. That's fine, as long as they're safe. Um, and that sex isn't inherently bad, that it's actually one of the great privileges of being human to experience a really positive sexual and or romantic relationship in your life. Um, it's what you do with it that matters. And that we all have the capacity to engage in enriching lives, relationships, because you know, and there's tons of decades of research that shows this. It's not your sat score. It's not the trophy you got, it's not your GPA that determines the quality of your life. It's the quality of your relationships.
Amy Alomar (18:10):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to use that, uh, sex positive. My kids make fun of me because when we look at television and movies, I'll say, I don't like violence, I'm fine with sex. I like sex. So I'm going to teach them I'm sex positive.
Shafia Zaloom (18:25):
Absolutely.
Sarah Cody (18:27):
I'm stuck on the sexual recession thing, but because, you know, I'm thinking of like the sixties when it was like considered the sexual revolution or whatever you freedom of that side of you. Um, and I'm sort of stuck on the fact that you say, like, I didn't think at first, when you said that term, it would be connected to phones and how kids are more alone or young, uh, young adults are more alone these days. So as a sex positive educator, how do you view this? Do you view this as a good thing, as a bad thing as a, I mean, a lot of the semantics surrounding that, you know, the linguistics or media generated, um, and there was a big Atlantic article that talked about this in particular and it sort of, it brought together, you know, all the different theories. I mean, another theory is that because pornography is so widely viewed and, um, used as a form to sort of release sexual attention and whatever else to satisfy, although I would argue that it's not so satisfying for young people, um, is that that's part of it too. Um, here's the thing, sexual debut, which is how we refer to what most people would think of as the traditional losing a virginity has really not changed. Um, maybe by a couple months, it's still, the average age is 17. Um, and that hasn't changed much at all. You know, in terms of the numbers, the percentages are relatively small. If you actually saw them, it's a small percent of young people who aren't as engaged and exploring sexuality with each other. Um, there are all sorts of other phenomenons and things that are coming together around this generation in particular that I think probably have something to do with this too, right? Like hiring anxiety rates, um, in terms of mental health and wellness, emotional wellness kids are reporting that, you know, the numbers of, um, young people in college in particular feeling emotionally well or a lot lower, you know, we know that anxiety is a lot higher when you're anxious, you are less likely to feel like you're going to initiate, exploring sexuality with someone else.
Shafia Zaloom (20:35):
Or we've done probably, I don't know, 25 podcasts, maybe at this point, Amy. And the themes that we're hearing for this generation of teenagers is so constant. I mean, that phones are in so many topics here from the classroom to, you know, whatever, to friends and that anxiety and that, um, lack of grit and resilience. I mean, we hear these things over and over again. So we are at really sort of a, I don't know, a changing time or a pivotal time for kids it seems or teens.
Amy Alomar (21:07):
I mean, I would definitely say, so I feel like the pendulum is swinging in this very extreme direction. And at some point it's gonna have to come back this way. I'm really hoping that it will. And that's my whole thing around this courage to connect, because I think a lot of what you're identifying in many ways gets in the way of kids establishing relationships that are grounded in authentic connection. And this is what they all long for and would actually be really helpful with all of these other issues that they're trying to navigate and deal with.
Sarah Cody (21:37):
And make the pendulums swing though. We are so far deep into the, into the tech world and into, you know, like what's gonna make it go back.
Shafia Zaloom (21:46):
Well, that's what I'm trying to do. I mean, I'm trying really hard. And that's what the book is about is how can we as parents cause we are the constant, right? I mean, we are the constant in a child's life in terms of sexuality education in the sexuality has to do with so much of it. So much of what we're actually talking about, like gender stereotypes, the gender paradigm and how those stereotypes reinforce each other, how they influence kids in their relationships and get in the way of authentic connection, how kids should be acting, thinking, and feeling and the anxiety that they feel around that like all those sorts of things. I think it's really important as parents that we be engaged in this conversation very explicitly and not in an overbearing sort of snowplow helicopter parenting kind of way, but a way in which, you know, it's really clear that we're the parent and we have our kids' wellbeing in mind. Um, and that the, these are the things that are out there and they can be a positive thing in your life or a negative thing.And so let's talk about give kids the language and the practice and the embodied experience of what is positive. So they know what to aspire to. So much of the time we come from a reactionary place of protection and prevention and which is fear. And so the majority of the lens through which we are having these conversations with our kids emphasizes and further stigmatizes these topics. And I don't think that's a positive way to move in an alternative direction from what we're, where we're going right now, which tends to be somewhat negative. Um, you know, there's a study out of the making caring common project that came out in the spring of 2017 and it was super comprehensive and it addressed a lot of different things like hookup culture, misogyny, but also things like love, 85% of the respondents of the kids wish that their parents had talked to them more about romantic relationships. And the study also found that our kids are grossly underprepared to have healthy relationships because we don't talk to them enough about love. Um, and you know, I think parents are doing the best they can. One of our primary jobs is to protect our kids and we have been socialized from the sex negative culture, right. And so we have to actually redefine this and be a part of a movement to create change for the kids. Um, and talk about love. Modern parents will check off the list like, okay, safe sexuality practices, don't get pregnant, know what consent is, respect women, you know, all this stuff. And what exactly does that mean is a whole other thing.
Sarah Cody (24:32):
and respect of self and men and non binary. I mean, right.
Shafia Zaloom (24:36):
Like respect of people of different sexualities and genders, all those different things. Um, and though we're not necessarily talking about love, we can always just protect them and prevent, because then we set this up, this negativity, we just reinforce it. We have to give them something positive to aspire to as well.
Amy Alomar (25:01):
And I think that goes along with so much, we learned about teaching kids. If we don't allow for failure, right. Then we're not really allowing for any learning or growing or development. And so it'd be the same thing when you're learning to read or learning history or math. It's like, if you only set up the safety, as you would say, it like prevention and safety, and then you don't do it, right? Like if you only set up your times tables and doing well on the quiz and they don't do well on the quiz, then everything falls apart. We have to see it as, as a process. And so, you know, if we're only talking about safety and prevention and okay, wait a minute, they had unprotected sex or they fell in love with somebody that didn't respect them. Like there's got to be a future to that. It can't be over it.
Shafia Zaloom (25:41):
when we, you know, default to these models of success and failure, which is embedded in that negativity or that prevention and that protection. Then if kids fail, especially within the context of sexuality, it becomes shameful. Um, and that isn't healthy when it comes to having a positive outlook on sexuality either. So it's really important. One to have those resiliency skills, um, to be allowed to fail, but to approach this in a way that inspires reflection and growth versus success or failure.
Amy Alomar (26:15):
I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm feeling like it's a hard time to parent it. You know, I, I might digress for a second, but I watched a hilarious comedy special on Netflix last night, Jerry, before Seinfeld, Seinfeld is what, 60, late fifties. He was talking about how, when he was a kid, his parents didn't know where he was. He, they didn't know where his school was and he turned out great. You know, so there's this whole thing. And then there's us with all these issues. And we're trying, are we trying too hard? Is it too much? But no, we gotta be on top of this. So I don't know. I think that this has been shot full of great information, but I think it's the place where I am today. Feeling overwhelmed. I feel like parenting today is hard.
Shafia Zaloom (26:52):
Yes. I agree. I got three kids. I'm right there with you. Part of it too, is because it was like knowing the difference of what do we really need to address in essential ways. And when are we just over-scheduling them and not allowing for time for them to like build that resilience or to engage their imagination. Um, you know, like boredom, boredom is the meditation of childhood and that actually yields so many beautiful things. Um, you know, for some kids, it actually creates unsafe situations and it did, you know, you gotta read your kid and depending on where you're living and where you come from, and it's really important to create a balance and be like, you know, what's a pathway kid is bored. It's so indicative of our age, right. That the we're like drowning in information, but starving for guidance. And so it really is kind of quieting our own minds as parents understanding and having an awareness of what we're caught up in and engaged in and what we're role modeling for our kids and then making some choices and prioritizing some values in terms of what's most important to us around these issues. It's a process.
Amy Alomar (28:04):
Yeah. I guess that's a good place to leave it. And you've been such a great guest. I think we might have to, uh, call you up again. Cause this was just fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us.
Shafia Zaloom (28:15):
Thanks for your interest. Yeah.
Sarah Cody (28:17):
And thank you listener for joining us on parenting beyond the headlines. We're excited to have, Shafia Zaloom. Where can people find you Shafia?
Shafia Zaloom (28:25):
You can go to my website. So it's just shafiazaloom dot com. You can contact me through that and the name of the book again, 'Sex, Teens and Everything in Between.
Sarah Cody (28:34):
And there is a lot in between we've learned about, and then also you're going to be a special guest speaker at a big event, too in November at Georgetown day school.
Shafia Zaloom (28:43):
That is correct. I'm doing a parenting, um, event at Georgetown in the evening. And then I'll be speaking at the consent summit, which is their policy summit. That takes place on that Saturday before Thanksgiving.
Sarah Cody (28:57):
Perfect. Well, so people can join you for that live and thank you so much for joining our show. And thank you again, listener.
Podcast Interview Transcript [Listern here]