Preparing our Kids in High School to Stay Safe in College
The part about college that no one talks about excessive drinking and sexual assault. Hear what Shafia Zaloom, health educator says parents should do to prepare teens.
Sue: Hi everybody, welcome to inside scoop with Sue and today we are back with Shafia Zaloom. Always happy to be talking to you Shafia. Shafia is a health educator parent, consultant and author whose work centers on human development, community building, ethics, and social justice. Shafia is currently the health teacher at urban school in San Francisco and we're going to talk about the part of college that no one really wants to talk about, excessive drinking and sexual assault. And you know there's a relatively new study out of Colombia and you sent me to it so why don't you tell us a little bit about what you found there and why it's so interesting.
Shafia; Sure so the department of public health at Columbia the School Of Public Health has an initiative it's called shift and the purpose of the initiative is to really sort of delve deeper into the reasons why sexual assault numbers are so high, how come they haven't shifted much despite educational efforts on the part of schools in the last several years and sort of what we can do about it to affect change and bring the numbers down and hopefully to a point where we aren't. You know contending with so much sexual violence on college campuses. It’s sexual awareness month this month so this is a timely conversation also because there's a lot in the news right now in particular around sexual assault as well as the current administration and how it's going to be addressing title ix guidelines out of the office of the department of justice, the office of civil rights and education. So this study really looked at what makes a difference and Jennifer Hirsch who was the head of the study who's in the School Of Public Health there is an amazing professor doing incredible work and there are other co-authors as well. She also with Sheamus Khan many people will know the book sexual citizens that recently came out. Did a more in-depth study and we can sort of segue into that but in 2017 what they found through their research with Columbia University students is that if young people had you know quality sex education before they got to college that included refusal skills uh within a context of how what consent is and how it works they were 50 percent less likely to experience sexual assault on a college campus.
Sue: Well I just want to interrupt you because that to me was the most fascinating thing i had never heard of refusal training. Now I’ve sent kids to college i'd like to know is there a place for a parent in that story? So they're looking at what can schools do better but we're talking to parents and so is refusal training something that can happen in the home not just in the school and what does it look like?
Shafia: Oh, absolutely and that's something they did highlight in the study was that the primary conclusion was we need to start quality sex education earlier in our kids’ lives and you know that looks different for different people right so there's one thing we lack consistency around in this country in regard to education is how we approach sex education. And it’s pretty there people doing amazing stuff and it's pretty abysmal right now um in the united states. And so parents…
Sue: When you say people so the researchers and the people who are available to educate us is expansive but the access like it's not happening in schools?
Shafia: It's not happening in schools so of the 50 states only 23 require that sex education be a part of a high school education. And only 13 of them require that it be medically accurate and only six require six to eight things might have changed since the last time i double checked…
Sue: What does that mean it doesn't have to be medically accurate, I’m sorry…
Shafia; You can actually know that there's sex education that's out there that's like medically inaccurate um and puts you know uh ideology of people's political ideologies over like public health. Like that's what a huge part of the majority of sex education happening right now if there's any because there's no federal funding for comprehensive sex ed um really very little in the way of there's a little bit and it was directly tied to research. For the last four years there's been no federal funding at all it's only been the states and only six to eight states even require consent to be a part of that education. So it's really you know when you think about what our kids actually need and what's going to keep them safe and serve them as they navigate life and journey through life this is one in which we're really behind.
Sue: I mean and the formula seems to be clear there's a lot of research that is supporting that education you just said 50% less chance. I mean who doesn't want that for their child. You send them off to college it's terrifying you read i mean two kids just died from alcohol poisoning yeah and in college because of hazing and it's like how do we keep our kids safe and there is a formula and we don't do it. So right if it's not happening in schools what can we do as parents?
Shafia: So all professional you know sex educators that i know we believe parents are actually the primary sex educator in a child's life and so as parents it's really important that we be engaging in dialogue all along across the developmental spectrum about healthy sexuality. And a lot of parents are apprehensive for several reasons and i think it's important to name these so that we can get over it. Um and the first is that we didn't have this education ourselves that the majority of us did not get a sex positive quality comprehensive sex education that actually served us well throughout our lives and so we're pioneers and we live in a you know cultural context in which we try to evade vulnerability and that as parents we need to be all-knowing and we forget that it's actually really healthy and a gift to be able to say i don't know to our child. Let's figure it out together. Um and sometimes the hardest conversations are the most important ones to have. The other piece is that as parents a lot of people are afraid we it is our job to protect our children and a lot of people have the misconception that if we talk about this they will then go do it. There is no empirical evidence whatsoever that proves that in fact the inverse is true. We have decades of research that tells us as parents when we talk to our kids in judgment-free non-stigmatizing positive context about sexuality that they will be more they will pace themselves, they will be more relational they will make choices that are more in their interests to protect their own sexual health and safety. And so how we do that is we look for opportunities and there's a variety there's so many ways um that we can discuss and the primary one i would say is you know make sure your kid you become the askable parent how do you do that to suspend judgment in approaching this conversation and that's hard but we want to lead with empathy because we want kids to be empathetic in their sexual exploration with other people and to give them language and this is where refusal skills come in so I’m going to sort of focus on this for a second we know…
Sue: So the big picture of what we do with our kids is so daunting to so many of us me included right and so like parsing it out into something called refusal skills like I want to do that to my kid who's in college right now and I can I feel like I can do it so if you can give us like how does it start what does it look like in some language.
Shafia: yeah and big picture too is you're scaffolding this over time you're collecting moments it's not one gigantic talk okay and that's important to remember and the other part of it is it's not so mechanical it's more about how to think about these things than the information itself certainly provide information about healthy sexuality but it's more how you think about it okay. So when it comes to refusal skills what that looks like is what are the different ways in which we can say no and the most important thing we have to remember as parents is that when we encourage and coach our kids to say no we have to remember that there's not saying no to the drug, they’re not saying no to the naked picture, they're not saying no to let's go have drunk sex, what they're saying no to who they're saying no to is the person who's offering it and this social power that that person has in the social landscape they are navigating. So the proverbial hammer of just say no is important but it can't be the only thing we talk about. They need surgical tools they need tools for different context they need to be able to identify context and be able to under have a vocabulary to manage what's going on so they're in a sexual situ any situation okay um and you can start with something that maybe isn't about sex because that feels you know all of a sudden we're talking about sex but rather you could talk about drinking you could talk about a social situation where someone wants to go out but you know you have to study and just to say so what do you feel comfortable with in that situation what are the contextual clues that you can pick up on that help you understand what tool to use right. Context is everything in relationships so when we talk to kids about context, we can use tickling as an example when you were a little kid and we had a tickle war at home lt was fun it was joyful there was hysterical laughter you were rolling around it was affectionate it felt intimate in a family sort of way when you got uncomfortable you could say stop cut it out I’m done. If some random person on the street tickled, you in the same way what would the emotional embodied experience of that be? Ask kids tell them you know and here's the thing we have to expand the vocabulary when it comes to how to express accurately the nuanced emotional experiences they have so they might say like you know kids will initially be like what no i want to punch them kind of thing okay so you'd feel scared you'd feel angry you'd feel confused startled surprised on the defensive creeped out you know all those sort of things you can explore that the thing is it's the same thing it's tickling but it's a different context so our experience of it is a completely different one. And they have to understand and know that it's also why you can revoke consent at any time because it's variable and they need to know that too and so the language then in that situation is okay and this is where you do these sort of tabletop discussions and play with it a little bit and you can use characters in media of shows they're watching you know characters and books stories something you come across in the news what would it take for you to be able to just say a flat out no. What context do you feel like that's reasonable a reasonable expectation?
Sue: And even like has there been a time because most likely yes our kids have been in situations already yes they either have or haven't and so how do we first of all my first question is how do you get a kid to be interested in having the conversation with you even if we feel armed from all of your wisdom how do we get them to participate because they have to be willing?
Shafia: I mean it's a balance and part of it depends on the age of your child right. Like so in in i really believe that if we're talking younger teenagers like in high school which is i feel like sort of the sweet pot spot i mean we're talking about kids are already in college too and that's a whole other thing and you all you have to say to them is, i know you see this this is what's going on. Um it's really important that we approach this from the perspective that we're we allow kids to be experts in their own experience like that's really important too and that we get really good at asking questions and being genuinely curious so you're not going to lead with why. Do not lead with why that already that connotes judgment right when you when you've asked a question why . Why are you doing that, what are you wearing, why would you want to do that, okay there's judgment in that already. Lead with what, how, when, where, stay away from yes or no questions, one word answers, you really want to explore this topic with your kid when has there been a time, what would it take for, how did that make you feel, what could you have done that would have made a difference, or they have done that would have made the difference, right? So you're exploring in a non-judgmental way if you want to make an observation simply use i notice ah, i notice ooh, that's interesting help me understand, right?
Sue: So we're not saying come in the other room and let's have a talk.
Shafia: No and you bring it up you know depending on your kid some people like the classic car situation it doesn't feel as intense you have a drive together you're not facing each other but you're there they know they're trapped i mean my kids always joke about the fact that i trap them in the car um and or a hike doing…
Sue: I want to just tell them when they get your lice their license that's the moment you realize what a gift you had when…
Shafia: Yes because for many reasons…
Sue: Well yeah but i mean in terms of having these conversations there you know you're done with those non-eye to eye kind you can go to a sushi bar that also gives you the same experience.
Shafia: Right well and I’ll tell my kid it's your turn to drive i drove you around for years now you need to give me a ride um but there's also you know a hike, cooking, baking, something together making a meal where you're actually involved in some sort of activity and processing which you can explore and that will also help to facilitate the conversation now if you have a kid that just stonewalls you um you know and says i already learned this in school whatever this is your gift this is your opportunity to say one to role model healthy vulnerability. I know this is really hard it's hard for me to this is not something I necessarily want to think about it makes me feel ever it is that you're feeling um and as your parent there are some things i just really feel like you know you need to know and understand um when it comes to this topic and sometimes this is the most important piece the hardest conversations are the most important ones to have. And i care about your safety and i love you a lot and so we got to find a time when we can actually connect. And you can say it's like when they were younger and you made them feel like there was democracy in your home when there really wasn't like here you can choose from these three foods but you're the one who supplies the three they're choosing from right so it's a little bit of the same thing too.
Sue: But yeah this your tone of voice is so um like that's the thing I feel like I would have to emulate even after I got the words is how do you deliver it with like there's no judgment it's very gentle you know that's a tough thing i want to point out that we have some comments here and there's a little bit of kind of talking it sounds a little bit more about whether kids should be having sex and I just want to be clear that we're not talking about that right now there's plenty of opportunity to have those conversations but right now what we're talking about is arming our kids for when they're done with high school to um be able to withstand these terrible stories that we hear in the news all the time to be prevented to be protected as much as we can in advance and Sophia add anything you want to that.
Shafia: Yeah I mean just to say really quickly because I think it's important and this feeds into the how we suspend our judgment when we have these conversations is that it's actually developmentally appropriate for kids to be exploring their sexuality with themselves or someone else during their adolescent years and as long as it's within it's on their terms within an individual sense of readiness so that kids have actually made a thoughtful decision they've taken into account their family values they have the information and access to the stuff they need to be responsible about the choices they're going to make. And so um you know moving on from that they are if they make these choices and they are going to explore their sexuality with someone else it's really important they be able to manage what's going on and this is where these sort of refusal skills come in um and i think it's important so there's lots of different ways to do this so for instance and kids will talk about this a lot of times they don't want they feel like once they say no the whole thing is over and that doesn't have to be the case and they need to know and understand that that you can say no to some things and yes to others you can say I’m not sure let's go slow, you can actually have a conversation and effectively communicate with your partner about what your needs desires and wants are um and limits are. That's a really important thing. Um and it's also it's also about choices, it's about agency so there's no there's you're making me uncomfortable or let's stay like this for a while or you know and teaching kids to be able to identify what's a consensual question. So they need to understand consent fundamentally that it's an agreement that both people are on the same page about what they're agreeing to um which is this other activity called think of a bear which we can go into in a second about how to actually engage in effective sexual um communication and how to teach that to your kid as a parent. But you know it's um let's stay like this every time there's a new level of intimacy introduced there needs to be an ask and body language counts and there needs to be an enthusiastic yes if the people involved are going to progress and you can revoke that consent at any time. Consensual questions allow for yes and no to be freely given without an answer coerced and a lot of times there's a lot of fake questions out there the kids don't know how to identify and so they feel then at fault if they said yes when it was coerced from them so a consensual question would be like you good, you okay, how would you feel about oral, have you thought about this before do you feel ready to those are consensual questions non-consensual questions that are what I call fake questions with kids would be like are we having sex soon you're down for oral right there are more statements than they are true questions.
Sue: Um there's a pressure there's a pressure attached to it.
Shafia: Yes, there's a persuasion either you're leveraging a social power dynamic in the context, you're using persuasive language, you're making a statement more than you are asking a genuine question you're infusing your desire and by doing that you're coercing an answer.
Sue: So if I if I mean everything you say is amazing but i don't have control for both sides of that story right . like so I’m coming into the story with one side and we send our kids if our kids are college bound to a place where we don't get to follow them around right and which by the way I know it's not healthy but I would love to. because I’ve seen my kids in college and I want to take them home when I see what's going on in college so that being said we also know that the first few weeks of their first college experience as a freshman they are the very most vulnerable for sure.
Shafia: So and yeah well so it's called the rest zone I mean that's typically what it's called and most of assaults happen in this zone and it's typically when they first get to school and there are a variety of factors that may contribute to that being true right? So kids are used to when they are a senior in high school they're like you know leaders of the school everything they have all this confidence things are um they're familiar with the environment they've been navigating it for a long time depending on their social standing um you know how they're how they're what they're how they're looked up to they know their teachers they know how it all works and operates. They get to college and suddenly all of that and they don't realize that having a home that they can retreat to with familiarity and a full fridge and you know all that sort of stuff how much how grounding those structures are for them and then they go to this whole new place and they don't have the grounding structures anymore and they have to recreate them at the same time that they're on their own for the first time, they're trying to figure out how to be in college they're also very concerned about making friends they still have an undeveloped brain there's so much shift that's happening in their lives that they're thrown off balance and when you're thrown off balance it's really easy then when you're off balance to sway in different directions without a whole lot of your um out of your feel out of control. If that makes sense um or to not be able to see something coming or to make a decision that you may not otherwise if that makes sense.
Sue: The piece that to me you know it's a hard conversation to have but it's like you get to go wherever you want to go and it won't be your fault but do you have to go there? So like I felt like can I tell my kids not to go to frat parties you know which they're not going to listen to but um you know the feeling like why enter the space where it's you're vulnerable and it's so much more vulnerable to be in that space?
Shafia: In the in the study sexual citizens is a book which is an entire study which is all about exactly what you're talking about so the context that creates sort of these moments in which assaults are taking place so it's more of it's all about this context that actually um makes college a place conducive for certain types of behavior and things to take place which is why we're not seeing all this change because we're so focused on moments of perpetration and being a survivor or victim in that perpetrator versus like which is important but we're not focused enough on okay what are the variables and the factors in the what's the context that's leading to this um and some of that is for instance fraternities um and that fraternities are only allowed. It's who's given the social leverage and currency of geography on a college campus because most dorms are dry there isn't public drinking that's allowed um and so who's given spaces in which parties can happen, fraternities and sports teams because they tend to live together when it comes to frats and sororities, sororities are dry because you know the association of Greek life when it comes to liability and insurance and all those sorts of things afford it to there's a great article in the Atlantic about it afford those things to men they're privileged in that way but not to sororities so who's turf are you on when you're navigating all these different things drinking, socializing, exploring sexuality, you know attraction all that sort of stuff when it comes together in this synergy whose turf are you on to navigate it through.
Sue:So the thing is that so we know that that's that that situation can be a setup yeah how do we arm our kids telling them not to go is not going to be so effective.
Shafia: No it really isn't I mean I think it's important to state what we think and what our values are and to also acknowledge that they are now operating of their free will and making decisions for themselves and that it's a both end right. So we also always tell them to wear their seat belts but at some point when they get in the car it's going to be up to them to put it on and so I really think that you know giving them information making sure they are they have access to that information before they get there talking through situations again how would you think about this and I do that through scenario work um so stories that kids tell me from college in high school um there's a hundred of them in my book like it's basically all these true stories that I have the opportunity to collect because I teach..
Sue: Tell us the name of the book.
Shafia: Oh, Sex Teens And Everything In Between, um there's about a hundred scenarios real life scenarios um you know that kids have experienced and deconstruct them and talk about them with those questions what would it take what happened did they both get to walk away with their dignity what got in the way of that if you were in this situation what would you have done what are the options for how to deal with it which do you think more align with your values which do you think are more realistic and could actually happen what's some of the concrete language you would use in this situation to manage what's going on. Um Could this have been prevented, you know if you were to intervene what would have happened, if you were to try to prevent it, what could you have done, so the critical thinking of social context is so important and then you know what tools do we have and could use given the situations we're presented with. Now there's a caveat and I had a student who came home once from school and visited me um and she had gone on to college and came home and she said you know Shafia everything we talked about in health class I saw on my first weekend at school and she was like and you can and we did and you can talk through all the scenarios you can discuss all the stuff but in the end there's always going to be something that comes up that you didn't anticipate and so it's really about being able to think on your feet and having someone in your group who is able to make a decision to keep people safe in a moment. And I think that's really true so advice to give to our kids is to say you know if you are going out into this context what are some things you can do to take care right let's talk about language let's talk about how you would use it let's talk about when it's appropriate to use it refusal skills there's no there's you're making me uncomfortable but then what if someone doesn't listen to you what do you say then um and when we talk about this you know I always tell my students there's these levels right and we don't want to escalate things we want to de-escalate things and so how do you do that with words if that's all you have um and then of course there's the factor of drinking and how when we drink and this is true of all people the more we drink the more we diminish our capacity to make good judgments. And on college campuses the higher the risk that you will experience an assault or perpetrate an assault. So and we all make calculator risks all the time right so this is part of the information when you look at the research the people who are actually perpetrating assault don't believe that that's what they're doing. So, they're always like okay what's the zinger like what's the one what word and always within the context of look these things happen you can prepare yourself as much as possible it's really important to do that and it isn't necessarily a guarantee but if someone isn't listening to you and you are trying to manage what's going on you can say if you continue you will be raping me. That'll get someone's attention right and you and you don't have to say it in a way that's going to escalate and engage in a power struggle but just to say if you continue you will be assaulting me or you will be ready.
Sue: I mean it completely brought me into like yeah, you're like whoa and I have students who have used it and it has worked um for them and so I’m not saying…
Sue: I think that is the like the greatest gift you just gave us today to tell our kids that that language said in a not screaming, not escalating way, could diffuse the whole situation not I mean like getting peace right but it gives you some power in that situation.
Shafia: Yeah you're taking it back right like you know…
Sue: Is your book more for parents to read or something we should give to our teens?
Shafia: It's written for both and it reads it's it reads in a way that it's for both um half of each chapter so it's all about consent um and practicing consent so not just what consent is what it looks sounds and feels like but rather how you actually put it into practice and what's needed to cult what you need to cultivate in your kids so that they can actually do that because I know lots of kids who can talk about consent and sophisticated ways but they can't actually put it into practice in their interpersonal dynamics. And then the other half is just frequently asked questions that I get from kids that are all the same across the nation because I consult nationally um and little sound bite answers as if they were raising their hand in my class so it role models the language you can use and how to answer the question but also for them it feels like I’m directly talking to them and it's the way by which they now digest information so it's helpful and then there's conversations…
Sue: Based on real life experience…
Shafia: It's all real-life experience and then I also provide resources that you can give to your kid that they can access that you can educate yourself with and then all the language the concrete language the questions the ways in which you can engage in the dialogue and what to actually say and do because people want a script, they want a script so it…
Sue: I mean the thing about trying something new is that you know or being told not to say something is something that you know you can hear and you can say I won't say it but you have to replace it yes something else so the script is so helpful it's just it's so constructive and Shafia Zaloom, I mean there's a so many more things we could be talking about we'll get you back on here again but thank you so much for this morning it was really instructive thank you.
Shafia: You're very welcome thanks for having me.