Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between
SuperPsyched with Dr. Adam Dorsay
Full Transcript below
Dr. Adam: Hello and Welcome, I am Dr. Adam Dorsay. A Psychologist at Silicon Valley. I am a host of SuperPsyched. A podcast dedicated to supercharging your life. Each episode contains fun, high-quality interviews with expert looking at psychology from all angles. SuperPsyched is your tool to get more of what you want in your life and less of what you don’t.
Sex and teens. The topic itself can be super uncomfortable, overwhelming, and even scary to both parents and adolescents.
If you’re a parent or a guardian of a teen, this episode is a must. So much has changed on the sexual landscape. There’s porn, hookup culture, social media, and so many other influencing factors. How do you talk to your adolescent to keep them safe and making good decisions? What do they need to know? What do you need to know?
Fortunately, here to answer these questions and so many more, is one of the top experts in the world, and a woman who has my utmost respect. Shafia Zaloom (www.shafiazaloom.com) is the author of Sex, Teens, & Everything in Between. I loved this book as did my wonderful psychologist wife, and we are not alone. The creators of the hit Netflix series, Big Mouth, Nick Kroll and Andrew Goldberg, do their best to make the show hilarious, but they also consult with Shafia to make the show accurate and instructive. They’ve said that her book, “perfectly encapsulates her mission at the cutting edge of sex education: teaching adolescents how to become people of integrity with regard to sex and relationships.”
So. listen in as Shafia and I have a candid and highly informative discussion about teens and sex.
Shafia Zaloom, welcome to SuperPsyched.
Shafia: Thank you for having me.
Dr. Adam: My pleasure, so Shafia you are filling such a crucial need and it is my wish that every adolescent has access to you. From my interactions with you reading your book and getting to know and what others have said about you. You appear to have found your calling, how did you decide to specialize in health education and then to double down by writing a book, “Sex, Teens and Everything in Between”.
Shafia: Well, when I was a lot younger about 25 years ago, I was a social worker. And I worked in residential treatment centers for youth as an alternative it was residential treatment centers, kids in recovery as an alternative to incarceration. So, doings triple diagnose kids to a drug addicted and words of the court. And it was pretty intense work and after several years at that I realize I have a few experiences in particular realized they really need to get into prevention versus interventive work so in my own health education relationships have been very important and so that point in health education for me and that’s set me on the path to really pursuing a career in health education. And then for various reason I started to specialize in healthy sexuality relationship education specifically consent as things in the national discourse started to shift in change and focus on that. And that’s what led me to write the book, I started consulting, going to different states, different parts of the country, doing a lot of parent education, teen education in different places and people would say, ’Do you have a book? Do you have something you can give us to continue what this work that you started with us and so that was really the inspiration for the book.
Dr. Adam: You know, one of the things I really appreciate about what you is something based on the idea of prevention instead of interventive work. It appears that on what I've read and what I know about you that you try to phrase things in positive ways that in would likely end up with prevention rather than having to attempt to a mess.
Shafia: Well, when I work with teenagers what I found, I think this is true on all of us. You know we’re more apt to strive for something and aspire to something and respond more positively to something like that than if someone else tells us what not to do. I think that’s helpful for kids to understand what not to do because they are concrete thinkers. But what’s hopeful for them is to have something to aspire to. So that when it comes to their esteem, we’re truly empowering them to do. They feel like they have a path. And kids eat this up because that’s really all they need. For a lot of them we just don’t show them the pathway to what we are asking them to do and said like don’t do this, don’t do that. We’re more reactive than proactive about what we are hoping they can achieve and just by putting them that in front of them we’re communicating them what we believe than them. And that ultimately that this is about that we believe in them in their capacity to do for themselves in a way that will lead to something healthy and productive. If we focus on what they already doing as being negative and that they need to stop without providing them with that balance and belief I believe that’s counterproductive in a lot of ways.
Dr. Adam: Absolutely, you give them a target and I like that so much rather than just say don’t go here, go here and one of your phrases that blew my mind not just no means no but rather yes, means yes. And that might blow some people’s mind. Can you explain the idea of yes, means yes?
Shafia: I mean, yes means yes is really about affirmation. It’s about looking forward to something more positive and hopefully especially when it come to our relationships that we are moving in those directions. That’s it’s not about someone, no I want to be really clear that no is an important word.
Dr. Adam: Definitely. We’re not replacing no.
Shafia: That we have to be explicit within these contexts. Sometimes people will run off on that. So you’re saying that no is not important and you should only say yes and there’s pressure to say yes and we are talking about consent. Someone should be able to say no, of course. Absolutely. No is an important word it is one I talk about. Refusal skills is paramount to keeping people safe. But we talk about we are aspiring to that is where we start to use yes. And that people appreciate yes kids in particular. As a parent myself I am always looking for the opportunities where I can say yes as much as possible. So that when I say no it’s honored and respected and that there’s something specific there that really means something seriously and that kids needs to listen. And then when we go to yes means yes, the context of relationships and sexuality we’re communicating to kids this is a positive thing. That’s it’s ok we’re not stigmatizing; we are not shaming it. But what matters is what you do with it. And so we want to be affirmative of what we do with it. We want people to be affirming their desires and be able to communicate what they want and need and that ultimately that is what leads to positive relationship building which is what we are trying to do.
Dr. Adam: And I like the idea of yes means yes because you also mention in your book that sometimes in the act, you’re like a deer in the headlights can’t say no and the absence of no does not mean yes. The absence of no actually could mean no.
Shafia: Yes, absolutely. And we cannot make assumptions and I don’t know if you catch up on the book I to this activity I do with the kids called the bear.
Dr. Adam: I love the think of the bear. Let’s talk about think of a bear.
Shafia: Yeah, so you know with adults I do this activity where I encourage them to think of a bear, an animal, a bear coz’ sometimes when you talk about sexuality people think they are naked. But we are talking about a bear and I encourage everyone to see in their minds eye. Think about what it’s doing, what it looks like, where it is and then when I start asking people about their bears, we would realize that everybody has different bears. And that they are polar bears, brown bears, black bears. They are in the forest, they are in the iceberg, it is the stuff bear that you had as a child and sitting on your bed. It’s gummy bears, its yogi the bears . There’s so many different kinds and when we process it with people and ask so what’s the takeaway once we start talking about it. Because we can have a superficial conversation about bears. There are some common things to bears that we could probably all agree upon. But when it comes to, what really matters all these important details differences amongst our bears. And I try to use concrete examples to illustrate concepts of healthy relationships and sexuality to kids and it helps them to realize that everybody might have a different bear and it might not be the same as yours. So when it comes to relationships communications is think of a bear. You have to remember that you may not have the same bear. You might be thinking of a black bear and someone thinking of a koala bear which is isn’t even a bear or a panda bear which is scientists think are racoons. You know and so it is important to find out what someone’s bear is and not make assumptions about it. And when you ask how you would know about someone’s bear looks like and feels like the answer is you’d have to ask. And that is an important segway to the concept of consent and sexual communication really understanding each other on authentic and connected level.
Dr. Adam: yeah, authentic, and connected level it feels like it’s a theme throughout the book. Really be authentic with oneself, being authentic with another having a genuine connection enough just using each other as tools. I don’t know if you are familiar with Martin Burbaddy . He talks about love relationship, the sacredness between two people and I in it. And it sounds like you really rock that idea in your work.
Shafia: Well, I am trying to humanize sexuality as much as possible and relationships and the benefits them for young people because I feel like the current narrative and the culture today is to disconnect. And there is a lot of focus on objectification and inhumanization when it comes to our bodies and our sexualities. And so in creating that counter-narrative, definitely trying to encourage kids and give them tools by which to initiate authentic connection and cultivate authentic connection in their lives which ultimately leading to substantive and meaningful relationships which we all long for. So yeah, that is the goal.
Dr. Adam: Yeah, that appears to have the highest aspiration in life. It’s what we talked about in our deathbed and the relationships that we have that they do appear to be the most meaningful thing. Obviously we can’t go to death if I would it would eat out our presentation. Let’s talk about the dreaded talk also known as talking to children about sex. Parents do find the experience a bit cringy and their children do too. And yet communication around this tough topic is so crucial. How can parents have a more affective exchange serious of exchanges with their children about sex, safety, porn, social media everything else and help keep children pass and able to make their choices.
Shafia: That’s a really big question. I think that you are asking that. I think that people are most overwhelmed and experiences a sense of paralysis with when it comes to these conversations and just like you would and advice your kid and a homework situation that felt like overwhelming and whatever else, you want to chunk it up and start with the basics in the beginning. And that is typically then realize that this is not one big chalk that everything is writing on. This is actually a series of small conversations. You’re scaffolding, think layers like layers of an onion. And you’re scaffolding things across time and then you gonna hang things on that scaffolding along the way. It’s really about a values-based approach and finding opportunities where you can insert a value, make a comment in a way that’s not judgmental. In particular I think it is really important that parents realize that we are not dealing in with the nitty gritty expressions of sex, at least not yet. And we have to maintain appearance of child boundary. That we are really looking for opportunities that we how people treat about each other. Because ultimately that’s what matters the most. and so when you are watching tv together, when you hear a certain song on the radio in the car together, when a story comes out of school or if you hear something about in the news it’s really an opportunity to ask a strategic question. Or make a comment where you are leading with I notice which is non-judgmental. Or you are asking a question that leads with what or how. Not why. Because if you ask why there is judgement already. It’s substantive to that. How do you think that make them feel? or do you think they are both to walk away with their dignity. Or hopefully you get a question like what is dignity mean exactly, right? And then that’s it. You can leave it at that and realize that there would be more opportunities that you are building this over time. It is not something that you are saving on perfect moment. In which you are loaded with everything and have this, you put so much pressure on yourself. It really is about collecting smaller moments across developmental stages.
Dr. Adam: There’s so many, as you are talking about values in viewing the conversation. Prospecting values I am thinking of a few that might come to before such as courage, authenticity, kindness, curiosity, social intelligence, respect, honesty. Are those the types of values that you are talking about?
Shafia: Absolutely, because really they are fundamentals to our relationships in general. And we can use all the positive relationships that kids may have on their lives already with us or with other people. As examples on which we can highlight the importance of how we treat each other. And if there’s some that I would highlight in particular I think is respect and I think we need to be explicit about that. Because always I can walk into a classroom if Im doing a workshop abroad like in a hundred kids and say how many of you have been taught to respect yourself and others like in your whole life. every hand goes off because truly as parents I think we all raised our kids to be with people. But then I’ll say on the hundreds that hands up, who can give me a definition, all the hands go down. And then I’ll say let’s figure out what that actually means. One respect could actually and if your brave kids start to raise their hands a lot of times there is a misconception that the golden rule which has value. We treat others how we wanna be treated, is what respect means. And that’s actually not true. Respect is how treating others how they want to be treated. And that’s how we think about bear conversation. Because we have to figure out how do you know when someone want to be treated. You have to pay attention and you have to ask if you don’t know. I think it is important that we only talk about these values, but we remember that kids don’t necessarily understand entirely what that means. What these sorts of abstract concepts mean. We have to make it concrete for them and talk about them explicitly. And what did the body and emotional experiences of them is in relationships. I would do that with respect, do that with empathy, and would do that with dignity and I would do that with integrity. Those are sort of the four that I would focus on in my teaching. Because I think they are fundamental, so important to healthy relationships and cultivating the capacity for kids to actually practice consent. Because there’s a difference between knowing and doing. So empower kids to do what they know and have learned about consent in all their relationships and it works all the time in our lives. They actually have to have that character building foundation to understanding what those values actually mean and have some sense of understanding what they sound and feel like in those relationships that they already have.
Dr. Adam: what I love about this approach that you have is there’s so much early intervention going on with really good methods to have outstanding relationships. I taught about instead of the golden rule the platform which you have just said you want to others as they want done and believe them when they tell you that that’s what they want. The idea of the bears to look a different idea. The bear it may seem absolutely fantastical. That somebody could actually think of that version the bear believes them. Let me say that challenge a few from the fact that the bear is going to harm them somewhere down the road or but I love that idea. One of the things I also get from you is that wording really matters. The way we say things matters. Of course we are not going to say things right and one of my favorite accent came from one of my supervisors. It doesn’t matters what you say or do but it matters to talk about what you say or done. So if you say something incorrectly to your child in one of the talks go back, readdress. Is that assisting with your idea?
Shafia: Absolutely. I actually think that is such a gift. It really is such a huge opportunity so in our culture what is the basic when it comes to our relation around vulnerability is that vulnerability is weakness. When it is actually a measurement of our greatest strength and so it is required for building healthy authentic relationship and so in that moment you can actually. When it comes to parenting, powerful parenting actually modeling what we are trying to teach them to do. So in that moment when you make a mistake within your relationship with them in the communication to be able to go back and to say, you know I taught about this again and I think I was wrong I how I presented it. Or I think I made a mistake or I think I could have done this better and here’s how we started about it and this is what you are understanding to know that is amazing. Because to be a role model to your kids is healthy vulnerability that we are all human, that no one is prefect in this effortless perfection that our culture express and this is actually not what leads to authentic connection. This is how we reach out to each other. This is how we have conversations and that some of the hardest conversations are the most important ones to have. And we know this that anyone who is in a sustainable relationship that’s the key to sustaining those relationships that means the most to us. Is that when things get difficult that we actually communicate with each other to figure out how are we gonna move forward. In a way that honors each other’s truth in our connection. And so absolutely words matter. And it doesn’t mean you have to perfect it the first time around. It just means that as you have these conversations you stumble through them, wrestle through them to awkward that you are able to say that even to talk about it, that you are able to ask how is this coming across to you. Does this feel like I am being judgy? Coz I am not really intending to. How can we talk about this in a way it’s gonna feel right for the both of us. And that’s ultimately what we want them to do in our relationships moving forward. What a better person to practice with than the people who love them the most and trusted with their safety.
Dr. Adam: So powerful and so relational based. I mean you’re really looking at and viewing skills that later on will relate to their significant others to their friends, to their colleagues. This are really really important to transcend the sexual realm profoundly. I am thinking about a quote by Donald Wintercoat , a psychoanalyst from England, really active in the 60’s. I’ll paraphrase what he said that psychological health can be demonstrated by allowing another to know you and having space to know another. And I love that yinyang that upload, download that you are dialing into in your approach. The ability to know oneself and to know another person. Through empathy, through authenticity, through integrity these are the greatest gifts you could possibly give a child I think. So Shafia, what are some common misconceptions parents about having directly with their adolescent children about these topics?
Shafia: I think the primary one that I hear about the most is the assumption that tends to be cohesively perpetuated that somehow when we talk about our kids about these things and then they are gonna go about and do them. And there’s actually no empirical evidence whatsoever that proves that, in fact the inverse is true. The more we talk about kids in direct in this medically accurate straightforward values based ways the greater the probability that they will embrace their bodily and sexual autonomy. That they will pace themselves and make better decisions that interest their sexual relationships health. And all these sorts of things and that all you have to do is look at the Dutch. Because the Dutch do this from the beginning and their kids are far more relational responsible when it comes to sexuality than their American counterparts. And there’s decades of research that can look it up really easily and true to in our own country around these studies people have done in sexual health. In particular comprehensive in sexuality in relationship conversation in taking a positive and proactive stance with it will in fact ensure that your kids will be more able and want to balance responsibility and enjoy them pleasure. This ultimately what a healthy relationship is all about. It doesn’t mean that they are gonna go out and suddenly start doing just because you are talking. And when I bring that up with kids they look at me like I have five heads. They actually find it amusing, like are you kidding? And we have a good laugh and then we get pretty serious so what that does mean for us as a culture for young people who are about to navigate the sexual landscape of our American culture like, what does that mean? And what do we need and how can we be proactive and where we can get information for all these things. They hear that and suddenly they are motivated more than ever to educate themselves and to realize this is a positive and good thing that talk to kids about all this stuff. That it is not that will need something to sort of demise their moral compass.
Dr. Adam: Totally, it does not lead to an affairs behavior and the inverse is true. I love that fact. I imagine similarly that teens themselves they are under such a deluge of information are under the belief, erroneously perhaps that in know more than they actually know. And I’m wondering what are the common gaps between what are teens think about what they know versus what they actually know?
Shafia: I think the primary one is they actually they think, well, there’s a feel and developmentally appropriate they are neurologically, and I think we all went through that and I think there some of us who still are. The older I get the more I realize they don’t know much. It’s a learn a whole lot more. It’s a humble pie every day. When it comes to kids I think adults and young people are like really consistently overestimate how many young people are actually sexually active within something called hookup culture. I think there a big awareness around hookup culture these days which basically means the spirit and think of a bear. Hookup culture the common denominator because there are a lot of better interpretations of what that means. There’s hooking up and there’s hookup culture, so a hookup is a social encounter where there’s no expectations of a relationship. So it is purely for physical gratification. More often than not young people and teenagers in particular if they are participating in some sort of a hookup experience It does not tend to be about physical gratification so much. Its more about conquest or social notoriety or social currency because it is clearly public.
Dr. Adam: Almost exhibitionistic.
Shafia: Yes, for sure. And then there’s hookup culture just probative. So what’s overestimated is how many kids are actually hooking up. Hookup culture is pervasive everywhere and that is the notion that, yes most people are hooking up. All they want is this impersonal sexual gratification experiences and this is the way to go and sort of glorified and it’s more about performance and conquest about sex experience and connection. People ultimately overestimate how many kids are actually participating in hooking up within this hookup culture. So that’s one. And the other one is they know what good sex is is. And I think this one as parents is we really need to offer an alternative understanding of what good sex is or I should say good sexual activity. Because majority of people when they hear the word sex they think of something very specific and narrow that has to do with something general intercourse. And I’m really talking about sexual activity and what positive sexual activity is. And the misconception there they think it’s just about getting off, it’s just about how many people you can hook up with. There’s a new term now that by concerning to me is body count which is their sexual history, who are they hooking up with, who they are not.
Dr. Adam: Just think about that word body count, I mean ugh.
Shafia: Yeah, so typically in the other context it’s used in more.
Dr. Adam: Exactly. How many people is killed.
Shafia: And so, they’ll say they do gender exercises for girls, the double standard is how to have a high body count. You have to have experience but not a high body count. I hear that in class and we have to pause. Let’s talk about the language for a second. We do a lot of activities to get kids in understanding what good sex is actually is tends to be pretty one-sided. It doesn’t include reciprocity. It’s very performance and conquest based and doesn’t include a lot of the incredible sort of human elements to connection and expression when it comes to sexual activity and intimacy. So that’s a biggie. And that is why it is so important that we be talking to our kids about this and in that aspirational way when it comes to caring, loving relationships. And that’s not to say that’s all they can have, or that’s all they should have or that’s all that we expect from them. But to help them understand the value of that for themselves and for others who will have importance in their lives.
Dr. Adam: You know, I am just thinking about what you’re up against at times as a sex educator for teens. There are terms that are mention like body count for example and music versus the idea of making a transactional approach, so many songs. It seems like there is no other type. I was just remembering back in our youth for example, like a total eclipse of the heart, that’s a song you’re not gonna hear that these days, at all. I’m just thinking about how do you sell the idea of relational sex when there’s so many reps of music and percussions that are coming into their psyches, no it’s actually body count. No it’s actually performance that matters. Whatever will get you up the sexual chain that matters. How do you sell the spiritual aspects of human connection.
Shafia: I mean ultimately, I have to say, we are it’s interesting and this is where the counter-narrative is so important and we want to teach kids to be filter and not sponges. We want to give them the tools to actually deconstruct what they see in the media. Think about it critically without criticizing. Because we don’t want them to alienate them or isolate them from us. We want to stay connected. Remember we are role modeling but then we are hoping that they are gonna emulate and gonna seek in their own relationship. Where we need to respect their emerging independence and independent thinking but then also be the parents. Because they got plenty of friends, they don’t need more friends but parents. And if no one is gonna create this counter narrative for them who is? And so as parents that is sort of an opportunity to step in to say and to wonder, to be curious and to actually allow kids to be experts in their own experience. And then to ask questions that will help them think about and then reflect upon it in a way that empowers them to make these conclusions for themselves versus us trying to impose it on them. So really what you’re really trying to do is to help them think about these things by asking strategic questions and by providing them with information and then allowing them to be the expert in their own experience, to educate on some things and engage in those reciprocal dialogues that will help them understand that there are alternative options. When we do electronic journals in my class, before they were written journals but you know times have changed. And in these journals I can say that thousands, thousands of kids that I talked and I've worked with over twenty five years, I have not come across a journal of a kid, no matter what the gender, no matter what the demographic has not identified longing for connection first and foremost. Or that’s what they are seeking, they want a sense of belonging. A sense of belonging whether it’s in relationship with another person, within your family, within your smaller communities, the greater community that you live in. a sense of belonging is people honoring your truth and who you are authentically versus like fitting in where you strategically change yourself to be accepted by this greater majority to fit in whatever it is you are trying to do. And so they long for connection and a sense of belonging. And that is something I think we underestimate.
Dr. Adam: That is so profound. And so consistent with everything I have studied. As to how are we as a social creature because social creatures really need connection. And our brains haven’t evolved so much that we become the eyes. We are actually meant to connect by the music like science, what media messages or what they see on porn. We are meant to connect. And the fact that you see that consistently that in the journals that the total eclipse of the heart still relevant. Musically at least in their psyches and haven’t heard the song. That’s really going to. Oh by the way, I’m just going to repeat something that you said because I love it so much. That we are looking them into making them into filters not sponges. That is so profound, so just on point. And I love the idea of being curious about the child experience almost like visiting a foreign land as an anthropologist saying, hey let me get to know you. Let me get to know the land, tell me you’re the expert on the land where you live. That’s what I am getting from you.
Shafia: Yeah, they have the power that none of us adult every have and that is to know what kids are up to when the adults are not around. So if we want to kind of inside of that conversations with them we have to allow and create for the space to educate us and what’s actually going on. So that what we address and what we talk about is real and relevant to them. It is really important that we understand the awesomeness of whatever it is that they are drawn to, their navigating and we won’t know that because we are not of this generation unless they tell us. And I think that is really important in a way it is also honoring and saying as a parent your communicating. When you do you’re saying this is something I don’t know and I know this is something you do. And I know this is something we have been meaning to talk about and it really gives them opportunity to seek their truth. To explain the bear. Because ultimately that is it what’s it’s all about. We are trying to model that, like tell me about your bear. Where does it live, what is it look like, what is it doing and what is it feel like for you. What is that emotional and body experience like. I had a kid, so is amazing every now and then kids just stop me in my tracks in what they write and what they say and during the time when I was about to do a parent education evening for this students and parents. And I said what’s the advice you have for these parents of what it’s like to be a teenager and how they can approach these conversations. And one kids said, pay attention more to how I feel than what I do. And I said, that is it. And I put that up on this huge slide because that is so important. The other on that stop me in my tracks that I like to put a lot in this book is the young woman who said directly in her journal, she said if the adults would take our relationships seriously how can they expect that we would. I mean this is out of the mouth of babes, that they are so thoughtful, and they are so perceptive of if we just can give them a chance. And I really just use those as ways to teach parents because allowing kids in those moments be the expert of their experience. They have so much wisdom to show with them. As parents I think also we are so focus on what do we need to address is problematic and challenging and difficult in your world. Where we really need to be building credibility by asking them about, what is drawing you, what is the awesomeness of this. And how come this is being given so much attention. What is it about it, that you are so drawn to? Without immediately stigmatizing, shaming it, there’s this expression that people’s young, we gotta figure out what that actually is it for these kids so that we can engage a meaningful conversation otherwise they just gonna tune us out. And what we have to say is not gonna have any direct relevance so why would they remember or listen to it. We wouldn’t do that, right? So when it comes to that sort of thing that I’m really hoping people would takeaway and be encouraged by we can have really positive control over conversations and that wasn’t so bad.
Dr. Adam: Exactly, that really could increase knowledge that is unlikely outcome. What you are speaking to what’s the old action of people don’t care how much you know until you know how much you care. You said it so much better and so much more, it was just a more attention to how I feel over what I do. I almost feel this jerk in my tummy coz I remembering as an intern a huge mistake I made. I was working in somebody in again and he and I working doing very well and he was on probation, we were really establishing a nice therapeutic on he came to a group meeting. And he pounded on the door really hard. And I went out and I said, please knock again and knock gently. What I did was technically correct. But what I missed and only knew years later I wish I could have corrected it, even with the conversation with him I didn’t have the inside reviewer at the time. But I share this in hopes that people will recognize within themselves this mistake. I lost therapeutic bond at that moment. He was knocking with exuberance for being there and I missed it. So yeah, it changed the course of our relationship. That I missed that wish I could go back in time and redo that. I did technically according to the playbook correcting. I am correcting his behavior, but I missed out on the emotional part.
Shafia: But then your intuition close you in to that learning right? So I think to when we also encourage our kids to this ourselves are more intuitive how we parent are more intuitive about our relationship, that we pick up on this nuisance they are so essential and important. Because a lot of the time we should focus on how should we be doing and how we should be doing it or like parenting but you should be just looking at the book but you are not actually looking at your kid. And that really has to be combination, right?
Dr. Adam: Yeah, the shoe must fit but we don’t try to make the foot fit the shoe. So I am totally with you. So let’s go into porn, it’s so readily available but can be overwhelming quite literally can be in a children psyches and can harm healthy sexual development. What can parents do to reduce the harm porn may cause.
Shafia: Yeah, I think it’s really that conversation and having the talks with them that help them understand it from a critical perspective. So they have the capacity to critique their behavior versus feel ashamed and you know shamed by it. I think first and foremost when we enter this conversations we have to be explicit about the fact that completely normal and natural to be curious about porn. And to identify how pervasive it has to be is and that for us as parents we want to engage conversation to understand that more and to provide information to the kids because a lot of them are learning about sex through pornography and that is not a quality sex education that will lead to healthy relationships. When it comes to porn, it actually really good way to talk about a lot of other concepts in sexuality and relationships that we want to get at in a more positive way. We can derive a variety of ways we can enter into these conversations depending on the age of the kids. Typically middle schools at the time you want to start it depending and you know again, you have to have a sense what your kid seen, what they are exposed to , how much they are exposed to, how much leniency do you have when it comes to the internet, when it comes to technology, how much oversight do you have, because the age by which the kids are coming across pornography is quite young and depending on the study you look at. They will tell you different things and that’s coming across not necessarily looking at it for their own pleasure because a lot of times kids will come across it when they just google something. Like when they want to see want images of cute kitty cats and they Google kitty cats and something happens to come up. Typically, the early teens, adolescent kids or when kids come across pornography and you want to be proactive about that. Amazed.org is a great resource that scripts or edit a video with a script to how you would actually have this conversation what you would have to say. There’s a whole chapter in the book in it because pornography is a hard one. It is really difficult and it is very different from how we were when we are growing up. And some ways porn is so porn. But I like to learn in learning about sex to like learning pornography to like learning how to drive from watching the movie the Fast And The Furious. Or to learn about physics from watching the Transformers. It is not an effective educational tool. It is purely for entertainment and you can approach the conversation from that perspective. Everything that are pro-porn and anti-porn is pretty irrelevant when we are talking about children. When we are talking about kids when they are developing sexual identities and brain development. And so it really is helping them understand they type on internet porn, it’s really internet porn that kids are watching free stuff. Places like porn hub and is that they got to understand it is typically contractual not necessarily consensual. That it is a very narrow presentation of sexuality. That it is someone else’s fantasy than actually the healthy sexuality for us that comes from our own imagination and exercising our own amount of imaginations within that context. And that for sure it is not representative of most peoples healthy sexual practices. And you know in particular how much you’ll go into that will depend on how old your kids is, what is appropriate and it is so important to have parent-child boundaries as a part of this conversations. Kids do not want to talk explicitly about their personal porn views with you and I actually think we should honor and respect that. What they do need from you is important information about positive relationships and how pornography is not representative of those things. And that too much porn, like how much what we see, how much we see and our own response to it, how much we seek it out. It’s really important that kids understand that too much is not healthy. And it can have some real consequences down below the line in terms of their sexual functioning, their capacity to have intimate relationships with real people. When it comes to sexual activity and try to recreate what they are seeing in porn without understanding the concepts of consent and things like that can really hurt somebody. So it is important to understand to have perspective of what is real and what’s not. Of what we are actually aspiring to in real life.
Dr. Adam: it’s interesting in my literature review porn induce erectile dysfunction was discredit as an idea in my clinical practice. I've seen so many young man who are unable to have sex due to the fact that they are so used to the feel of their hand or have these sexual fantasies that are based on someone else’s fantasy as you just said. Or that they are anxious about performance for host of reasons that they are not gonna measure up. Quote literally and figuratively to the images they have seen. So I have seen a deleterious effect of long-term porn engagement that is too much. I think there’s probably to a point a just right amount probably varies to individual to individual depending on how susceptible they are to host of things. But I like your idea of you imply that there’s a right amount perhaps and there’s too much.
Shafia: Yes, and I don’t know if I ever say that there’s a right amount because it is actually illegal to show young people and to encourage them to see sexually explicit images. You know for me it is sort of the same approach when it comes to substitute education. Like you want to take a more productive approach. It is important for kids to understand that it is illegal for them to watch pornography under the ages of 18. And there are some real reasons for that. And they should understand what those are. That they should be informed in their decision making. And that as adults we have an understanding that it is pervasive and that it is out there. That they may be compelled to watch it and a lot of times in their privacy and we don’t have control over that. And so what is the information that we can provide them with so that they can make decisions for themselves. That it will be in the interest of their overall health and well-being. And so I think that’s really the important piece that I have kids come into my office who will say, who I worked with workshops and in different parts of the country they are so compelled. This is weighing on kids mind because to approach me and say, my penis is broken I don’t know what’s going on. I am scared and I can’t do this, I can’t do that. Within this culture that really rewards hyper-masculinity to talk to your teacher about something like that as a young man who is struggling takes a lot of indicative of how much this weighs on them. And how concerned they can be around these sort of thing and I get a lot of anonymous questions too like what is too much? How do I know when it is too much? How do I know when I am harming myself? And that is such an individual thing. And so kids really need this to have ongoing conversations about health in general. And how things are going but also not just have a one porn conversation but to check in from time to time. The other thing that people are surprised by is that sometimes more young girls are coming across pornography. Young women are watching porn. Typically and it is very gendered binary thing and typically girls are watching it for other reasons to see how they should be responding in a sexual encounter because they are not because they are not actually experiencing pleasures in a way that they think they should be. And it should be more exaggerated. And so they are looking to see how they should act. Or they are doing research to try and understand what boys want and what boys please them and use that as a yard stick for their own pleasure. There’s a lot of different reason some of them are actually using it for their own sexuality. Some of them are also self-pleasuring at the same time. Sometimes I hear about boys will say that their partners who identifies who are female will say things that are similar to what they see in porn and get completely overwhelmed and suddenly will lose their capacity to experience pleasure, erectile dysfunction, those sorts of thing. Because they are so overwhelmed, it is just a lot. And suddenly they feel like, wait I am expected to be performing like what I see on pornographies, so it is complicated. There’s a lot to it I think as parents we just have to help our kids understand that we are aware, that it is there and provide them with the information they need and encouragement that they may need to make healthy decisions for themselves. And give them alternatives, kids these days, kids are so floored by the concept that they can actually use their own imagination when it comes to sexual fantasy. So ultimately it is developmentally appropriate for teenagers to explore their sexuality for themselves or other people as long as it is consensual, as long as it is in terms and there is sexual autonomy being practiced on both sides. And so kids need to understand too that it is a part of that sexual fantasies are normal thing when it comes to the teen years. And it is ok to have a sexual fantasy as long as you don’t act on it in a non-consensual way. And kids need permission for that sometimes. Because there is this culture that is telling them, porn, porn, porn and everything else which is also someone else’s imagination. Its not the wrong. And so you know you need to understand that it is actually a normal healthy part of sexuality. We are a part of this. We tend to focus on porn, there are plenty of sexually explicit objectified, dehumanized representation of sexuality in mainstream media all the time.
Dr. Adam: Can you give some really good examples?
Shafia: I mean, we just talk about it in music, right? In terms of TV, so even shows, so part of this is if you are an adult and you are watching these shows that are targeted at adult audiences you can be assumed on the part of the show for instance that you have an experience of context which you keep these images in perspective. When young people are watching those images or binge watching these series or stuff that are meant for adults that have adult representations of sexuality. They don’t have that experiential context or perspective to understand or be able to make sense of what that means. So as simple as Grey’s Anatomy for instance there are relationships and sexuality represented there. That’s an older show. There are shows such as West World, Game of Thrones, in particular right? You see rape in those shows and so many ways the non-consensual activity, the illegal sex, the rape is normalized in some of these shows. And kids watch it and they’ll binge watch it. But they are not adults with the same perspective, cognitive understanding, or capacity that we have so we have to be talking to them about that again, filters, to be able to critique and deconstruct media in a way that they can make sense of how things are good together and how impacting them and influencing them in different ways.
Dr. Adam: Yeah and that prefundamental development you’re describing and just having more flex around the sun and life is so crucial and I think that to my earlier question about how much things they know versus how much they actually know is really dependent on how many trips around the sun and their pre-frontal and either one is really as online as one would like. And if these runs are fire together do wire together and I’m really geeking out here with that’s how I think. And when they wire together early for example learning that platinum method what a great thing. When they wire together watching porn with objectivation then what a bad thing. And that would require a lot of effort to untangle overtime in which a lot of people should come see like me to help them in that pursuit of a more relational experience in life which is what we all hunger for to begin with just as you said. What I go with an idea of connection and you mentioned that your work isn’t just about consent but really about love and connection. What are your favorite ideas about cultivating love and connection?
Shafia: Well and you know, again this is the piece that I think is really more important. That we tend to underestimate how much kids want to understand and know about caring-loving relationships and about romance. Not in the way that’s cheesy, not in the way that is sort of sarcastic and making fun but truly intimate and that caring loving relationship are in many ways the foundation of what keeps us well in our well-being. That keeps us connected to the world, that keeps us mentally healthy, emotionally healthy, physically healthy. I mean we know this. There’s decades of research that proves it. That the quality of our relationships determine the quality of our lives. And you know love is such an important aspect of our existence as human beings and place into that sense of belonging within ourselves. You know self-love is huge. And such an important thing to cultivate and help young people cultivate within themselves. So that no matter where you are, you feel a sense of belonging because you love yourself. And so there’s a variety of ways I think that is important to put love in front of kids. Not only that sounds love and how we take care of ourselves and how we find a sense of belongingness inside of who we are. And that also how we treat each other matters. And love and caring, there’s a difference being in love and being loving. Feeling love and sharing love and nuances of this state of being. Coz a lot of people mistake it for relationship context, but its really an emotion, it’s a state of being, its about connection and context has a lot of to do with that. But its different, so really talking to kids about that I think is an important piece of putting samples and highlighting examples that it’s so important for them because it is something really beautiful and amazing to look forward to and aspire to. And again we’re sort of coming back to these questions about being preventative versus interventive. Its like set them up for love because if you ask any kid and you know, what’s amazing if I ask a classroom of 15 year-olds, what they value in relationships and how they want to characterized their relationships in 10 to 15 years, right, which is when they are in 25 and I ask roomful of adults who are in their 40’s or 50’s what they value in their relationships and how they characterized their positive relationship it is all the same. The responses are all the same. Loyalty, honesty, joy, communication, caring, trust, all these values that we talk about. There’s no gap in what kid want and what adults want and have discovered they need. And so from the beginning to point kids to that, to highlight in the relationships that they have in terms of what they need. But this is all what we all want and need. And ultimately is what we are going for. And what we are hoping with their neuroplasticity and going back to our geeky brains and their brain development and mind development and they are establishing patterns that may behavior now that will determine who they are and what their relationships will be like then. And so you know getting them to buy into that and to understand what they are going for by pointing to the emotional and body experience of that I think is true. I have this quote that I left to open my classes about love on, is there’s many how does it go, there are many minds as there are many heads and there are many types of love as there are hearts. And you know just helping kids there is no definitive answer in so many ways. This is an ongoing and life-long process and when were in class, I’ll say, what have we figure out about love so far. Right? Coz we are all on this journey. I’ll be in different places in the past.
Dr. Adam: That’s a very good question.
Shafia: But you know, like what have you figured it out about love so far? I wanna pause to acknowledge and take a moment to say that there are some children in our world that have not experienced positive care and love, so far. And so when it comes to those kids and or those adults or whatever the age of those folks is in that moment one has to become abandoned, you don’t set someone up, to trigger trauma or to do any of those things. But to ask those questions with sensitivity sometimes with professional context but to say there is out there hopeful you can cultivate this in yourself, let’s talk about how we can find it. Let’s talk about ways we can build it in our lives. Because we are all capable of it in a way that is hopeful but if you have a kid who has experienced trauma who doesn’t come from positive relationships it is important then to resource that child to get them help and to get them support in a way that is professional and therapeutic. Feels support within their storm by you know make that kind of a thing. I just, I wanted to pause on that.
Dr. Adam: Very important piece.
Shafia: Not everyone and every child have a loving relationship in their lives.
Dr. Adam: what are some of you favorite, just generic tip that a parent can teach to a child.
Shafia: I think that when it comes to healthy relationships and sexual activity it is really important that, so we talk a lot about them to aspire to in terms of what is healthy because it helps them understand when things aren’t right. So I think for parents is not so much a word or anything like that or a skill. Which is to engage in reflection and listen to intuition. So to be able to quiet ourselves in a sort of gremlin voices in our ear that gets to second guess or intuition and to practice with our child, identifying that feeling in their stomach. The emotional and bodily experience of what they know to be right. Just drawing connection to that first. And then when that is challenged, in moments when it is challenged for parents to strategize with kids and to identify what are the things that get in the way of your ability to listen to your inner voice. And then what are some tools, Lisa Mary just called toolbox for troubled times. What are the tools that you have and what are the strategies you can come up with? To deal with those obstacles. So that you can make decisions that you can stay true to yourself. Now as a parent too, it is always important to that we allow kids to have fall backs, healthy fallbacks. So we teach our kids to be honest but sometimes it is ok to be dishonest for a higher truth. And that higher truth is our intuition and keeping ourselves safe. So you can say it is my parent, I need to get home my mom just texted me and or have a safe word because my kids when they were younger they would go for sleepovers or something like that. You know our safe word is family dog. And they would just say, I’m just calling whatever I hear daisy in the background.
Dr. Adam: That is awesome. That is so great.
Shafia: When they brought that word, I knew something was going on and they want to be extracted in a way that allow them to save face in the social landscape. And so I did what I needed to do as an adult and a parent and a confidence be able to do that. To allow my kids to do what they needed to do to feel safe.
Dr. Adam: I love that.
Shafia: I did that with my kids always when they would go to parties as teenagers, right? When they got older, when my kids are 19, 17 or 11. And you know when they were older same thing they can always use me as the fallback. And I would go and I would show up and I would say, I’m here, I’m outside. You totally didn’t do x,y and z or the family is coming over, I told you.
Dr. Adam: You are so busted.
Shafia: You’re so busted, get in my car right now and be the mean mommy. They feel safe.
Dr. Adam: Exactly, that’s brilliant.
Shafia: And that was our contract like I’ll come and let you do these things as long as I can trust that when you need to, you’re gonna pull out and report. Where is my parent shoe, I’m coming in and I’m gonna be the fall back.
Dr. Adam: I love it.
Shafia: And I think that we need to come up with those for our kids. So that sort of three safety tips in one. And the other is, our kids need to know refusal skills. When they are in a sexual situation, and when they feel they can’t manage what is going on. They are not comfortable with it and they try to manage what is going on, they need refusal skills. Cambridge university came up with a study last year that showed those kids who have some form of comprehensive sex education should included refusal skills their instance of sexual assault was down by 50%.
Dr. Adam: Wow.
Shafia: That is so significant. So they need to understand and know good refusal skills for different levels of intensity when it comes to sexual activity.
Dr. Adam: I almost feel that refusal skill is a second language. It needs to be taught. It so repeated enough so when they are in the moment in vivo they are able to execute, because when anxiety goes up functioning tends to go down. It just needs to be really repeated.
Shafia: Repeating and practice so within different context. So you know, my kids so just you could imagine, my daughter when I send them to college I felt confident that she knew how to manage and engage her refusal skill within a sexual activity context. She S.O.S texted me and was like, Ma, there this girl and she’s on my bed and she’s coughing, she’s digging into my cheese sets. Her roommate just tested positive for Covid. What do I do? Which is an issue of consent.
Dr. Adam: Entirely.
Shafia: But because she has a developing brain and it is different context it is different to her. And so we actually have to go over her refusal skills in a bunch of different context. She’s like, mom, you gotta write about this. Can you do an article, and I did it’s on Grown and Flown. Yeah, you can find it on my website on how during Covid, how we need to talk to our college student, it’s about consent and how to manage these situations and teach consent within these different context.
Dr. Adam: Totally, context switching is so crucial here.
Shafia: Crucial, it feels very different to kids and so how do my skills transfer to different context. And we have to be really concrete about that. So that’s another piece.
Dr. Adam: We’re so wired to conform; we’re so wired to say yes.
Shafia: They are neurologically programmed to seek the acceptance of their friends. And when we deconstruct and face-timing the other girls who are in the room once that girl left. Who are certain notorious about barging in, for never knocking, she was very sort of socially popular and very, oh I don’t have it, were kind of thing which made the girl second guess right their intuition? To great example of how that voice comes into your head like well, you know we are trying to make friends, we are trying to build a social life here. Everybody likes her, she’s telling us making too big of a deal about this. We want to be chill, right like but their intuition is telling them she needs to get out. As Covid is literally in the room.
Dr. Adam: So tuning in is so big for you. And being able to really listen well to that part. I can’t think of anything more important almost. I used to think of this as being like despicable me with a whole bunch of meaning inside of us. It’s like the cells of our body rejoice when we represent our bodies well and they actually tells to go to hell when we don’t. we get sick, our bodies tense up. Our immune system goes down. It’s crazy. In addition to being the health educator of urban school in San Francisco and the author of an amazing book, you’ve consulted with the creators of two blockbusters shows that deal with teenage sexuality, Big Mouth and Pen 15. As an adult I find those shows hilarious and profoundly pointed and I so wished they have been around when I was a teen. Can you talk about the work you have done with these shows?
Shafia: Sure, so Pen 15, I've commented on a lot of radio sets because they been casted with Big Mouth a lot. Shows that recently come out that address adolescent sexuality. And so I've been asked to comment about but I have been actually consulted writes of Big Mouth and with my students too. Because they are very interested in talking to kids about what’s relevant and you’ll see to they have reviewed my book and they were awesome. I love working with those creators and writers, Andrew Goldberg and Nick Kroll. They just been phenomenal and have been an incredible opportunity. And they have great questions centered around what’s relevant. They love talking to young people. To really understand how they’re thinking and feeling about what’s going on in the world and to how then creatively integrate that into their seasons, their episodes. I have some real favorites too, and I just really appreciate that. It can create a piece of media that is rich with opportunity to have these discussions with your kid. Media is a great way to enter these conversations because it does not feel directly intimate and so there is a degree of separation. You can talk about the characters like the real people . You can engage in dialogues that kids will really get into. And provide to want in with their own insight into. And to well-placed strategic questions out of good pace. Your kid may let you watch that show with them, may not, watch it anyway so you can engage in a dialogue. Media is such a great way to do that and I think were monsters and by which the very positive way the show addresses what’s real and honest and raw. They will quickly get you into conversation that is addressing what kids are wrestling with currently on a daily basis.
Dr. Adam: So great, so great. Yeah, I just love the show so thank you for consulting with them.
Shafia: Oh, and people should be forewarned. A lot of it is super cringey. So you may not want to watch it with your kids. You could say that you could handle it on your own but you are really curious about and I wanna know their take. Like there so many ways you can use it. But the adult should be warned. It is super cringey. I did a bunch of presentations with comments with media and we used pieces from Big Mouth because I've worked with the writers and they gave us permission and we are deconstructing as adults, certain pieces that I have gleaned and picked out to practice. There was one woman, she was fantastic. I really appreciate her honesty; she was like I couldn’t get passed it. I just couldn’t get passed in my mind. My heart really went out to her and I said, I know. Some of it is just so cringey, so hard and they key is just to narrate your experience to your kid. Ask them what the awesomeness is is. Highlight the pieces you can tolerate and find the value and maybe ask your friends. Because afterwards they’ll say what passage was it. What moment, and then I said, here’s how I would deconstruct that piece. Here’s how I would focus on just like, oh, I never thought about that. I was so wrapped up with my own visceral reaction that I wasn’t able to, so watch it with a partner, watch it with a friend. Have a discussion first and have it with your kids. That’s what I would suggest.
Dr. Adam: It is quite a deluge. It is so brilliantly done for me even the cringey stuff is totally worth. I love working through the cringe. It might rude often toward and piel and so many other voices just make that show the most hilarious thing ever. I’m gonna close with a final question, and that is If you and I think I know the answer I still want to ask. If you have the magical power to confer on all humanity one piece of knowledge or a skill that would tremendously helpful, what would it be? And what do you imagine if that could be on individual as well as society as large.
Shafia: Oh, I don’t know if this is the current context but right now im all about choosing love, radical love. Because there is so much that is wrapped up if not, although competing that, that would be dignity. My big mission has been recently to resurrect that word and concept in our culture that I think has been lost. And that treating each other with dignity is fundamental to all healthy authentic relationship. and that success in relationship is not about getting someone to say yes, or getting someone to see your way. Or whatever it is that most young people think. It is really about those people being able to preserve and feel and practice a sense of dignity. Which basically means treating each other with dignity and have value. And for me now the word I’m gonna pick is radical love. And that we all need it. We need it more than ever. Now and that we do have the power at least in our own relationships to choose it. There are lot of things that people don’t have control over and for us it is really important to find the ways we choose love, we encourage love, we cultivate love. And we put it up in front of our kids the best way we know how. Because I think that’s what’s gonna save us in the time that we are living in right now. It’s choosing love and not only caring for ourselves and loving for ourselves but caring for and loving others as much as we can.
Dr. Adam: I’m referring that radical love means as much as possible going to love.
Shafia: Going to love, finding love even when things are despairing and difficult and hard to find the love and to keep working for towards love. And that ultimately that’s what I want the energy to go where my kids will find themselves and I hope young people there’s so much in terms of cancel culture and calling out and all these different things. When it comes to kids I really tried to encourage calling in. adults it’s a little more complicated and a lot of my work is about ethics and social justice. When we are talking about teenagers and we are talking about relationships and we are talking about sexuality and the ways which we develop those relationships not only with themselves but with others. It really is about love, calling people in, finding the love, celebrating the love, embracing the love, choosing love.
Dr. Adam: I am all in, so thank you so much for taking time to share your wisdom with my listeners. I can’t thank you enough.
Shafia: Thank you for your interest and for having me. It’s been so much fun and pleasure.
Dr. Adam: This is Dr. Adam Dorsay thanking you for listening to SuperPsyched. If you know anyone who might like it or might benefit from listening, share it. And if you like the episode, please hit subscribe.