Sex Education with Shafia Zaloom

Season 3, Episode 1: Sex Education with Shafia Zaloom
Fullstack Educator

Matt: Hello, Michael!

Michael: Hello, Matt! How are you?

Matt: I’m good. How are you?

Michael: Doing well. I am now speaking with you from across the ocean.

Matt: That is right and literally, across the ocean. Which ocean, Michael?

Michael: The Pacific Ocean so I am now at cruise to a school in Hawaii. I am in Oahu, coming to you from Honolulu which is exciting.

Matt: Yes. We are very excited for you and a little jealous and actually that does make an impact because we are kicking off Season 3 with this episode and we are changing the format a little bit. Partly due to distance and also due to time and editing. We are going to shift for educator podcast with once a month. Previously we’ve been doing about every other week trying to aim for every two weeks and that’s a lot of content. It’s great. We hope everyone had enjoyed the content, but we are going to trim it back to once a month. We hope that you continue listening. You’ll see us all a little bit less in your feed but don’t despair of the impact. So, season 2 was a wrap. We had a lot of episodes in season 2.

Michael: A lot of episodes.

Michael, what episodes stand out to you?

Michael: You know, there’s a whole lot. I was just looking through. Trying to remember all of them because I think it is twice the size of Season 1, so we’ve got some good momentum, but I think for me personally since I, a lot of my experience in independent schools has all been in the academic side, working on academics. First episode of the season with Julia Ray on School Finance, of course I knew something about finance, but the episode was really great. How she laid out on different structures of business offices and best practices. I really appreciated that. And I think that’s my second favorite was Jennifer Stimpson episode on rethinking science identity.

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Michael: That was really, really good. It challenges me in the way that get me thinking about science education and I still find myself quoting to other the things she said.

Matt: For sure. Yeah, Julia’s episode on finance is definitely standout for me, too. I have known Julia for a while now and she’s awesome. Like he said that just an area of school that for a lot of reasons we don’t talk a lot about. It’s hard to get to know that side of the shop so to speak. On our own time, right? Or just in meetings, we never get the full picture of that as a resource to go back to and think about. You know, one of my favorite people in all of the independent school world is Mark Mitchell. So, I was really honored and try not to seek out too much talking with Mark Mitchell. But I think he’s episode on enrollment, and learning his backstory too was really powerful. Robert and Michael Thompson were a lot of fun. I think I laugh more on that episode than I have in any other episode. And of course, you know, Dean. Dean Fauster, I wonder when we can get him back on and talk about more about purpose. If I remember it right, we ended with a brief conversation about finding your purpose. I think that would be a fun thing to explore with him.

Michael: He definitely is an expert leader but clearly has a passion for thinking philosophy as well. I felt like most of his statements could turn into episodes.

Matt. That is true.

Michael: I was just gonna say, tell us how we are kicking this season off. You had a great conversation for our first guest for season 3.

Matt: I did yeah. We are grateful to take the time out to educator podcast. We cant thank her enough and we are excited and honored to have Shafia Zaloom as the guest on this very episode talking to us of what can be a very sensitive subject but she does a great job of guiding the conversation and Michael’s gonna officially introduce her now.

Michael: Shafia Zaloom is a health educator, parent, consultant and author whose work centers on human development, community building, ethics, and social justice. Her approach involves creating opportunities for students and teachers to discuss the complexities of teen culture and decision-making with straight-forward, open and honest dialogue. Shafia has worked with thousands of children and their families in her role as teacher, coach, administrator, board member, and outdoor educator. She has contributed articles to The New York Times, The Washington Post, and numerous parenting blogs. Shafia’s book, Sex, Teens and Everything in Between has been reviewed as “the ultimate relationship guide for teens of all orientations and identities. Shafia is currently the health teacher at the Urban School in San Francisco, and develops curricula and trainings for schools across the country. Here is our conversation with Shafia Zaloom.

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Matt: Hi Shafia, Thank you so much for speaking with us today. Our listeners are new, and aspiring independent school leaders. We would love to start by asking you to briefly share your journey within education.

Shafia; Well, first thank you for having me. I appreciate your interest and let’s see my journey where it begins. So, I actually when I got out of school I was a social worker and realized pretty quickly that I wanted to get into preventative work versus interventive work and that led to education. So in my own education, relationships the positive community and the spaces that I was a part of made all the differences for me. and that’s why I decided on health education in particular. Because relationships in school are so crucial, critical in my own development and trajectory. So I started teaching and created a human-development program that is kindly unique at the time .So this was in the early 90’s and Brody Berzentine who’s head of the Spencer school now and she was head of independent school academy. She wanted to pioneer a health education class, that was not just biological, was not just stereotype for mean girls like the PET or teaching about STI’s but something really authentic, psychological. Psychodynamics sort of class that focus on the real issues that teenagers are wrestling with and that’s how it started so I started developing programs also along that journey was an administrator, I was a division head, I directed a campus for a summer program. I was also a DEI intern for a couple of years in a couple different schools. So a lot of intersectionality in my work in terms of healthy, schools, wellness, the whole child liquimath became popular in the intersection of ethics, justice, things like that. So it’s been close to 30 years now that I have been doing that and I started to specialize in health sexuality relationship probably 15 years ago and that was just really practical. I started to have children, I have 3 kids myself, I was job sharing with another person and the class that work with my child, her schedule happened to be the one in human sexuality and personal integrity and so I started to specialize and then and about 5 years ago had a couple opportunities where I became then the consent lady because you know where in curriculum guides and things that attracted media attention that’s how I ended up where I am now writing a book and all the sort of stuff.

Matt: Ok, and have you mostly done on the west coast?

Shafia: Yes, so teaching mostly on the west coast, went to college on the east coast, grew up on the west coast, actually my parents lived abroad so there’s an international stint there for about 15 years. They were there but I was mostly here. Since I started consulting about 6 years ago and I now travel to a lot of different states, to many different states and presented consulting to a lot of different schools across the United States.

Matt: Fantastic. Well, we want to claim some of this wisdom. So, let’s start with speaking of stereotypical health and wellness programs, my experience limited as it may be, schools tend to talk about sex and one or two camps like health biology, hygiene kind of conversation or it is the other side which maybe more discipline type of conversation. Talking about internet safety, talking about consent a little bit or tragically, we gonna get the families together, or we got all the faculty talking about some instances has happened have become public. Would you say it is true or I might being cynical to say?

Shafia: No, I mean absolutely. If a school even has a program or teaching about sexuality at all, right? Human sexuality primarily is about human relationships and how we treat each other. A lot of people have a misconception that it is all about genitalia, and body parts and system and there is certainly that scientific clinical like you talked about biological aspect of it. But that is just a fraction of what is represented when we talk about human sexuality and I think that when we talk about specifically independent school communities, independent school communities have a real opportunity to do this in really effective and impactful ways. And a lot of times either there’s a history behind the school or people thinking sex that’s not what academic education is about. They sort to fall in line in sex negative culture to politically historical context that’s pretty sex negative this country has always poured into itself towards when it comes to human sexuality. Things are absolutely opening up, things are more progressive. There are amazing schools especially in the independent school world that are doing tremendous work in this area and there’s a lot of room to grow. I think what we’ve all realize though is that we are preparing our kids for success in the greater world and by that, I mean, a sense of well-being, joy, of responsibility, those things, we can’t not have this conversation. So then what happens is what that sort of look, sound and feel like and what are we ok with it and what are we not? And what do our parents think, right? That constituent like what’s that about? Yes, it tends to be more biological, if you will, and when I do parenting workshops in independent schools in particular, I’ll ask an entire audience of parents you know, how would you characterize your sex education if you have any? And many identify if they have any, that it was exactly what you said so things haven’t really changed so dramatically. They’ll say it’s really clinical. Or they’ll say it is stigmatizing, it was just about how to avoid pregnant or STD. and then I’ll ask the question, did it serve you in your life when it came to real life relationships and rarely does anyone really raise their hands. Right, so I think that’s the question we have to ask ourselves so yes, I believe that’s true. The majority of folks, that is also why I have a job. A consulting job, people hire me to come in and talk about those other things, for sure.

Matt: So, give us uh, what should sexual health discussions should look like at independent schools in terms of the structure and the content. If you could wave the magic wand at your favorite independent school and you created the program. What would it be?

Shafia: So what do we aspire to? Well, part of it is has to be very age appropriate. That’s incredibly important and I think all of us in independent schools pay attention to that right? And how we scaffold Math across the developmental stages. How we scaffold science, English writing, you know, when you are learning to read and then some you are reading to learn like 4th or 5th grade and how that progression happens over the years. And so, for looking k-12, so there’s k through 12 in independent schools, a lot of times it is k8 and then 9,12 or you have k-12. And so ultimately, what everyone is going for is to have a comprehensive program that have several components included. A department if you will, and someone who’s trained in wants to teach health education. So much of the time independent schools, there are so many situations that I come into where the school councilor has just been told this is what you should do because you talked about feelings or there someone who have been advisors who comes from all departments and been told you need to discuss this. I didn’t sign up for this. Or the school nurse typically, who is then told they have to teach it and here is the thing, that’s we would never ask an English literature teacher to teach AP Biology. We would never ask a Spanish teacher to teach AP Math or Trig or something like that. That I think is important to reflect upon or what do you going for people who are really interested or are they trained to actually do this in a way that’s gonna serve the kids in the school. So, I think it really is establishing a program that is developmentally appropriate where there is a scope and sequence, where you engage in backward design. And these are all the tenants of quality teaching. And you decide with your student walks across that street in 8th grade. When they walk across that stage in twelfth grade. And they are graduating from your program. What skills, what capacity do you want them to have when it comes to their ability to being sustained healthy relationships with people in their lives. Because that has to do everything with the school and environment. It has everything to do with community. How we treat each other matters. And it is a very mission driven conversation that a lot of people don’t recognize. Whenever I go to school, I always look at the mission statement, when I go and present NEIS, I will look at all the attendees, the school they come from and all of the mission statements. And I will glean in all those pieces that have to do with humanitarian citizenship which is ultimately healthy sexuality and relationships is about. It’s about empathy, it’s about mutual respect, it’s about care and safety. It’s about how we listen to how people want to be treated and how we educate others on how we want to be treated. So that we can be available to learning and use that knowledge in ways that contribute to the greater good of the world. That’s how I see it. I hope that other schools are looking at it from that lens as well. I hope that they’ll entertain that perspective.

Matt: ok, I’ll jump ahead a little bit in our questions coz you touch something that I want to circle to you. And there’s a great quote from your book that I love. “Learning how to connect, convey your intentions clearly and ask sexual partners for consent or sensual interpersonal skills are the building blocks of healthy respectful caring relationships” such a simple notion. It is so overlooked and in such a way health education and like you just said you connect that to each school’s mission which is absolutely true, every school has that. I would wager a lot of public schools have that either in their standards or in some sort of a vision statement or mission statement. So, talk to us a little bit more about having this as its own department as opposed to something that is integrated. Do you feel that would lead to any some sort of isolation or is importance of having a department to be able to recruit experts it needed?

Shafia: I think it’s a both ends. A lot of schools are trying to engage to on both end thinking and I think this applies. And that one it needs to be intentional about the expertise that we bring on board, about the department that we have, about how we are collaborating and communicating, around all those people whose primary objective responsibility and objective is to oversee the wellness of the school . so, we are talking deans, grade deans, school counselors, your health teachers, anyone who teaches, there is also physical health bite and nutrition. Sort of depends on how your school is structured, who are the people who are actually deeply invested in this work. And is there anyone else who is a stakeholder who has a certain level capital that we need to have on board. To ensure that our program is about high quality. And the other part of it is where good teaching is happening. There is going to be integration naturally. So, in the sciences we integrate certain levels of Math, in Language we are talking about the human condition in addition to the mechanics of it. We are talking about people’s stories and how stories in their lives open up words as an exercise or imaginations and all these different ways. like there’s all kind of music, art I think that we all understand and appreciate the value of an integrated program and or curricula to certain extent because that’s how life works. With sexuality and relationships, it is no different. I will also go and consult or go ih an English classroom to talk about, so how do we discuss virginity and coming of age stories? How do we discuss emerging sexuality in characters? How do we discuss non-consensual sexual situations that takes place in literature? Those sorts of things. In math are you looking at statistics on sexually transmitted infection rates? There’s all kinds of ways that we can integrate which I think is important and as because this is who we are as people and how we treat each other we all sign up for this when we sign our contracts. If mission driven, there is fundamental level by which we are responsible for making sure within the community we are all working towards making contributions, respecting each other, listening to each other, that kind of thing. So we all have responsibility even if it isn’t concretely integrated into our lessons. For instance, when kids come in and say something if to social engineers’ situation in the classroom and you are doing small group work and you know that someone is not treating someone else well. It is about bringing attention to when you setup small groups in a collaborative way doing a science lab saying whose voice is being heard. Who is creating space so that everybody can be considered? Are you talking over people? Are you interrupting people, are you allowing people to fully voice their opinion or are they quite because they fear they are being judged? These are things we need to bring to kids attention in all of our classes because it is about who we are as people. And it is paramount to how we relate to each other within our romantic and sexual context. We have to reinforce for kids they have this misconception somehow and I understand why, because as adults we presented it this way a lot of the time. Romantic and heterosexual relationships are completely different from other relationships we have in our lives. They are not.

Matt: That’s true. Yeah, we do.

Shafia: It’s just that a dimension that freaks people out so it gets side load in these other category.

Matt. Right, right. So, may I ask you a question that’s may a little unfair curious to know as how you respond. Let’s look into topics that less easy to integrate, you have to have a conversation about consent. You have to have those health clinical, biological conversations and then talking about relationships too. Outside of the integrated curriculum it seems to me that the question always comes back to when we got to teach all of these created level mandated subjects? How do we do it? We got AP’s breathing down our necks. Do we make these a one-off session? Do we work on an advisory? Do we setup some other special times throughout the year? What do you advice? What do you say to that question?

Shafia: When I go into school, I look and see and find which ways are schools are already doing this that they don’t even realize. Especially in a K-8 school, so here’s a thing. The other part that is really confusing for kids in schools tend to bring in this conversation especially around consent always under the umbrella of sexual violence. Something happened, someone reacting and so the only time they hear about consent is within that context which is very different. Completely different context from healthy sexuality and relationships. I think it is really important that we identify the ways in which we are already doing this. Especially in the younger years, it’s anti-bullying programming. It’s remediation of any kind of sorts of conflict among kids. Mediation I should say. We already have those things in place. Where people are talking about respect and space bubbles and a look into someone’s space what you’ve done has actually made them upset, can you see that expression on their face? You’re building empathy, right? Schools that appreciate or encourage their kids to appreciate their teachers, each other on a kid’s birthday, there’ll be an appreciation circle or something. That is building empathy, that is foundation of empathy in the beginning stages of development. Hopefully that appreciation and recognition that other people contribute to our lives in positive ways showed it is valuable and important for us then to honor and respect and acknowledge that in them becomes gratitude which becomes empathy. And empathy is key, empathy in so many ways the majority of quality sex education. So, a lot of schools are already doing this work without realizing it. So, I’ll point that out and we’ll take an inventory and discuss the ways that can make that work that they are already doing. More concreate and explicit and known in the community. So that you are naming it right? You’re giving language to it, recognizing it. Those are really important things especially for kids who are concrete learners depending on where they are cognitively. As you move on to the high school years it’s also looking at schedules. Here’s where we turn to fall off in the high school years. So I feel like K8 probably some form of puberty education because there’s the biology aspect of things. The school yard, there’s like lunchtime throw downs and school yard shenanigans like all these things are like morality clinic. There’s already all kinds of stuff going on about how we treat each other. In there are ways we can enhance or enrich what we already doing. To talk about consent explicitly when it comes to who wants to play or whose turn it is or who we listen to, how we express what, or feeling in a moment or has someone has made us feel or treating us. Things like how to be assertive. How to say no, or draw line or boundary. These are all important aspects of all relationships. And then in high school it is not as, I want to say specific in terms of how we do this. What we really gonna have to do when we come to a high school is to look at one, what sort of instructions that you have in place for this to start to become integrated. And what point, because all schools will you be re-imagining your schedule and how can you ensure with all these competitive needs that a health program is integrated into that reimagining of that schedule. So if you don’t already have it, yes, enrich what you already doing, find those areas, advising works, and I will tailor a curriculum to work in what structure already exists with a plan, like a strategic plan for what the school will aspire to in the future, if that makes sense.

Matt: It does.

Shafia: So, you know, in trying to figure that out id like to work organically with the school to say, ok, “what are you already doing well’, like what’s in place? Where do we need to, where can we enrich, where can we integrate or where do we want to ultimately be in a certain amount of time and what’s feasible? What’s feasible in the life cycle of your school and how you gonna get there and then actually institutionalize that, right? Not just in being contingent in one person who had an idea and talk to another administrators but getting in a WOSK plan so the next time it get in WOSK accreditation with that plan. Like those are the ways we hold institutions accountable not tie these things to specific people whose ideology in the moment right it is gotta be celebrated and embraced.

Matt: Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, by speaking to where it fits in the schedule and the life cycle as you said of the school that’s also a question about priority to a certain extent, isn’t it? Yeah, institutionalizing over personalizing is a good point. Very good point. One thing that is consistent across the work articles and certain book as well is the notion of giving teens a voice in conversations about sexual health. Why is that so important and why do you think it so rarely happens in our schools?

Shafia: It’s important for all aspects of school life for teenagers right, it’s for them. It should be about them. And that’s what we typically go for. But because of social political historical context of the sex stigmatized culture ad the sex-negative culture people tend to freak out right? And put it somewhere else especially teenagers because there is these total misconceptions that if we say it, they are gonna go do it and there is no empirical evidence whatsoever that actually proves that. In fact, the inverse is true. Through congressional research that’s been proven. When it comes to giving kids a voice and asking them what they think and need. This is about cultivating agency and autonomy in one’s learning. This is about empowerment. This is about kids’ understanding what their rights are, and the capacity to claim those rights. So, they can build confidence and then they are able to exercise those rights in a way that there’s right by everyone else including themselves. It’s about dignity and building dignity, cultures of dignity. We all know that when we have a vested interest in something we’re gonna have more ownership, we’re gonna invest in it more genuinely and we’re gonna hold each other accountable. We know that from our adult experience. I think what’s really important when it comes to teenagers is that we remember that they have a power we don’t. that’s to know what’s going on among them when the adult are not around. We have to create time and space for them to actually be experts of their own experience. We have so much to learn from them. And If I do my job right in a classroom, they are gonna learn more from each other than they actually will from me because I’m just gonna teach them how to think about things, how to resource themselves, how to apply the information because there’s plenty of it out there. We now have the internet like they are drowning in information and starving from wisdom and guidance, right? So it is really more about how can we guide them from the perspective of our experience and our expertise to how you apply that information to the complexities of human relationships and interpersonal interactions. And so I think if we talk about the value of teens voices we have to guide them to understanding what is it that you need and want? What’s gonna get in the way of that? And how can you come up with tools and strategies to actually overcome those obstacles confronted with them. That’s critical thinking. We do that all the time in quality programming.

Matt: Yeah, especially in the age of problem-based learning.

Shafia: Yes. And project-based learning too, right? So that’s what really is all about and that’s why we need to elevate their voices because we have so much to learn from them about what their experience actually is because we are not living it. But we need to help them guide them through it. And it is so interesting when I was writing my book I have a review crew so I have a group of 15 former students from across the country in different schools where I consulted, different identities and genders and all that sort of stuff. They read everything that I wrote before it went to editor for publisher because I wanted to ensure that it was authentic. They contributed to a lot of the scenarios, and we talked to a lot of things. And this one young woman she said to me , she’s just so incredibly sharp, she said, you mentioned all the time the strap word teen culture, I just want to make a suggestion like stay away from teen culture. I said, tell me more about that. What do you mean by that? And she said, we are teenagers navigating the gauntlet to adulthood. So what we are doing is trying on everything we see adults doing in an effort to figure out how to get there. So we are just holding mirrors after you left. So we are really not teen culture. It’s adult culture from our perspective. And that was huge. And here’s another example, of teenage wisdom. I had a young woman in my class, and in her journal she was reflecting and sometimes the kids address me directly through their writing. She said, Shafia how are we supposed to take our relationships seriously if the adults don’t because the whole class was about. Like how to be safe, how to be responsible, all those sorts of things and she was, they discount our relationships all the time because we are so young. Because we are teenagers, so how then can they expect us to take our relationships seriously if they don’t themselves. So there’s all kinds of nuggets teenagers will share if you just ask. I just recently wrote a blog piece for NAIS and there’s another article that came out of the interviews that was in the Washington Post about how black teenagers navigate into racial dating. And it was the same thing, I mean I went to 20 hours of interview and to end as a woman of color who once infinities face and has done the EI work on an administrator level of these things. I just, the education of these 20-hours of interviews was so huge it was really just because I ask and I was willing to listen until I could truly hear and see what they were trying to say. I just don’t think we take the time or do that enough with young people. So part of my mission then is to elevate those voices because I think it’s a missed opportunity. Not only for us but also for them because they deserve that recognition, they deserve that airtime and they deserve to be experts of their own experience because ultimately that’s what we want them to be. Right?

Matt: Yeah, and that’s just a shame because it’s a missed opportunity. Teachers do get into teaching and even stay for the love of their subject. They do, but I think the better teachers that usually last love their subject, but they love their kids. They love the student in the classroom. We’re still missing the opportunity to listen. It’s such a shame.

Shafia: Yeah, I think so many of us are so well-meaning especially with these conundrums in the ways with which they are wrestling through life and trying to figure things out. It feels to good to us to be in that position. I think that’s a lot of the reward. I think it is true altruism when kids come to us for guidance. I think a lot of the time we don’t realize because we don’t listen to kids enough. Or talk less and listen more is because we wanna help fix it. And so we wanna offer advice. This is what you should do. This is how you should do it kinds of thing. But really, what’s that saying if you want to give someone a fish versus teaching them how to fish, right? It’s kind of the same thing because is that they may become dependent on adults to give them advice and what to do without discovering that capacity within themselves. So we tend to share statements more than we ask questions. We tend to talk more and listen less. Which I think we need to consciously which is understandable, I think we all done it. But consciously do the inverse of that. To guide kids to their own discovery and empowerment in those ways and relationships are a sure way to do that. And that’s just not around romance or thing or a crush or a hookup or anything like it’s about like, okay, I’m not doing well in Math class, and I’m really intimidated. I feel like i can’t say anything because I am sophomore in a class with juniors and seniors and the teacher is really busy and the office hours, they always have the older kids in the class and I have a lot of questions but if I don’t feel like I can ask them and I want to advocate from myself but I am afraid that they gonna see me then as not trying hard. Like whatever, that’s about human relationships. That’s about how you advocate for yourself. How do you really express whats going on to you in a way that is someone is gonna hear you and see you. How are you proactive and assertive and what you need in getting that. What are you entitled to, what are your rights and how do you actually then claim them? I mean, that’s huge. And who the kids in the classroom forms who they will be at a party on a Saturday night. Or who they feel they are on a Saturday night who’s gonna inform who they feel they can be in a classroom. So there’s no avoiding it. This is the concept of what we use to call it whole child and sexuality is an integral part of it. We hear the word sex and there’s pretty narrow default representation that comes to mind. When really it is so much broader and deeper than that.

Matt: Well, along those lines of what we as teachers or administrators can do to listen to teens, speak for a minute for aspiring leader say a history department chair who has just accepted to the position as mega division head or athletic director or dean of students, something along these lines. They are now both pretty to the more complicated conversations, situations that may come up with students. But they also sort of have a seat at the table to influence how a school approaches health and sexual well-being of the students. What advice do you have and what do you hope the next generation leaders is gonna bring to the table?

Shafia: I think there are a few pillars that are important to consider as you should consistently be at the forefront of someone’s mind and advocating for the well-being of our students. But also, if we are for instance, a college prep school for a lot independent schools are prepping them the next steps that we have to acknowledge and recognize research. Decades of it. That it really is not your SAT score or your grades where you go to college that will determine the quality of your life. It is the quality of your relationships. We really just have to honor that that’s the truth. And that’s more of an orientation towards conversations to how we respond to whatever’s coming up as administrators when we make our decisions and cast our votes. I think that’s really recognizing the value of it. When it comes to, there’s two other pillars important and I separate them intentionally. So when it comes to sexual violence it really important to do your research and to create professional development opportunities that are mandated for all teachers, staff , administrator on how to handle sexual misconduct. Confidentiality guidelines and laws, your legal responsibilities, mandated reporting, how you respond to a young person who has just disclose to you in a survivor centered way. It’s actually our first impulse not in the best interest of the survivor at all. And I know many, very well-meaning leaders in schools who have compounded trauma, who have violated someone’s confidentiality and actually moved the trajectory of that child’s healing downwards and without even knowing it. I think it’s our responsibility now that we have become so aware to how pervasive it actually is to be trained in the spirit of survivor centered but also fair because we have responsibilities to all children even those who are alleged perpetrators, but these are kids who should also have the opportunity to rehabilitate and to learn and to engage in therapeutic intervention. There’s so much to it that requires training and NIS is task force that has a lot of great protocols. There’s a tremendous amount of information or educational non-profits. I did these with schools too to talk through to these things to revamp your policies. To really get yourselves up to date and walking in the times with these issues. There’s just no excuse. There’s just isn’t and a lot of these sexual misconduct happening at school all the more reasons why it is our responsibility. Or it is happening then and the dynamic is going back to school impacting learning, impacting relationships, impacting with safe environment and the ways in which way we keep our communities healthy and strong. The other pillar is to talk about healthy sexuality and relationships in a way that balances responsibility with pleasure. It is ok to talk about pleasure with young people. It is actually developmentally appropriate for teenagers to explore their sexuality themselves with someone else at this time in their lives. In fact, one their primary developmental task in terms of clinical human development and psychology is to figure out through experience how to have sustained health relationships in their lives. And so, it should be good. It’s like we are creating a cooking class and we expect them to come up with big, beautiful holiday spread or meal and the only thing we talk to them about is how to avoid food poisoning. That’s not what we’re teaching. We will never do that in any of the secta. Make a whole point. The reason why we talk about literature because of the amazing worlds that open us up to and engages our imagination and creativity and our ability to connect with other people through this incredible expression through story. It’s about Math, and how Math can lead to engineering and building phenomenal and incredible things that contribute to our lives. It’s all about science and discovery, all these things is no different, human sexuality is not different. And so really taking the time to self-reflect and understand what all socialization around sexuality has been. See that, put it over here, realize and recognize what we aspire to and what we hope for the young people in our lives which is positive, healthy, fulfilling relationships grounded in mutual respect, safety and empathy, right? And be ok with this balance of responsibility and pleasure. That’s the whole point and the kids know that. And we discredit ourselves immediately when we stigmatize it. It really important that we actually open our minds to a more sex positive orientation to health programs. They can be age appropriate, there can be important boundaries in place. It is going to be primarily about values. And guiding kids to understanding what their values are and to identify what their moral compass to let them guide them in many ways. It’s about character and so just think it is our responsibility as adults to really get clear about those things. And how our own personal experiences may influence our impact or ability to do what’s right or impact our students.

Matt: Yeah, so that’s a great framework of the pillars. I mean, I make sure I got this, the first pillar was understanding the importance of human relationships in terms of fulfilling life. That is more important than college in career and SAT scores and all that. Second pillar was understanding the law, understanding sexual violence, understanding how to respond to victims and the rippling effect of that impact. And the third pillar was not being afraid of talking about our pleasure. Is that a pretty good summary of this?

Shafia: Yeah. For sure.

Matt: That’s right. That’s a great toolkit to take. What resources would you recommend that people read to kinda strengthen any one of those pillars.

Shafia: That’s a good question. So Heather work I think is really important. One thing I wanna acknowledge is that every school culture is different. And any school is at different place on this journey. Talking about how we would aspire to these pillars and whatever else. Some people have 20 miles to run, and some people will have 5 is just sort of knowing your community and pacing yourself is also what we want to remodel for our kid when it comes to these conversations in intimacy. I think that first and foremost medically accurate credible resources, so Planned Parenthood is one. You have to educate yourself in many ways, Health Connected is a great one, ETR is phenomenal and fantastic. These are specific to education. SEICUS in flaking on the actual acronym. It is about sexuality, quality. It’s SEICUS, it’s like sort of a national standards that they have for all schools. So, I would definitely look at their national standards. And then there is NEIS created a resource guide, it has webinars, and archive videos I know because I done it a couple of times. Other folks who are doing this kind of work too. So there is actually a lot but I would say ETR, Planned Parenthood is great resources for more biological aspects of things but they also come out with great educational videos on how to talk to partners about sexually transmitted infections and safe sexuality practices about consent. And they are all very inclusive with different sexualities and genders and then there is website scarleteen, which is pretty progressive. Just gotta put that out there and see what things you are comfortable with first. And then Heather Corina, her book is the textbook in my class. It is called Sex, Everything You Need To Know To Get To Your Teens And 20’s. These are high school, I am talking about high school right now. Middle in high school tends to be my sweet spot. If you are talking about littles, I did a list for common sense media, on books that would be helpful and age-appropriate for kids, Gender Spectrum, is excellent too. They do great work, around gender and things like that. Which is where you would bring someone in and they focus on those aspects of sexuality. Yeah, so there’s actually quite a bit out there in the space can be really helpful and NEIS has done sexuality conference, I just book one at Harvard graduate school that was open for everyone and for free. So you just kind to have to dig around. But there’s a lot going on.

Matt: We’re gonna link as much of that as we can in our show.

Shafia; Great!

Matt: We’ll make this available to our listeners. So you touch a little bit earlier, you kinda branded consent lady, but we should talk about consent. I said that because in reading your book, Sex and Everything in Between, I thought I had a fairly good concept of consent and avoided some of this scenarios really challenges how this works, so it can be incredibly complicated.

Shafia: Yeah, and you are a grown person. If you are a kid that popular culture pushing their narrative on you it’s like super performance achievement based when it comes to sexuality and that you should evade vulnerability. You don’t wanna catch feelings like they are disease. And all of this sort of stuff that kids talk about. It’s tough, right?

Matt: Well, I am looking at it in a pool car moment without actually navigate this in the heat of the moment.

Shafia: With an underdeveloped brain. Brain’s under construction. Right. All kind of things.

Matt: This is a very unsure question, but can you give us a brief framework of consent.

Shafia: Yeah. Do you like French fries?

Matt: Yes.

Shafia: Ok, what kind of fries do you like?

Matt: I like seasoned fries.

Shafia: Seasoned fries. If you wanna build credibility with kids, you might throw out chick fillet with waffle fries with special sauce. Curly fries, anything. So most people like fries. So if you have a plate, so what kind of sides do you like? Are you a ketchup person?

Matt: Ketchup is great.

Shafia; You could do barbecue?

Matt: No, I do chick fillet sauce at .chick fillet.

Shafia: You do the chick fillet sauce, ok. I've heard a lot recently about milkshake, people dipping in milkshake. If you’re out fun for it. Every now and then specially if someone from the east coast is with their family, I get the mail thing. So you have a plate of your most delicious favorite fries and your sides are all lined up and you go to sit at a table of family or friends and you put your plate down what happens?

Matt: Well, they all know now not to take fries off my plate. Because we talked about that is not ok.

Shafia: Yes. Hands come darting in and pick up your fries, right?

Matt: Right, exactly, yeah.

Shafia: That’s a very universal experience and I ask a room of 500, kiddos or adults. Parents always start panicking they think of the last time they actually did this. How many of you are a hundred percent ok with that assuming consent context of course? Nobody really raises their hands. So, what is not ok about someone picking up your fries. What would you say?

Matt: They are my fries.

Shafia: They belong to you. You had expectation, right? Were you looking forward to them, they are yours, they belong to you, you’re hungry. There is an anticipation and then, the other part of it is what didn’t happen before someone else help themselves to your fries.

Matt: Nobody asked.

Shafia: What is so important about asking?

Matt: Oh it’s respectful. It’s kind. It’s considered. It’ gives me the chance to do something nice if I wanted to.

Shafia: Yeah. It honors your choice. They even the right when it comes to something that belongs to you. It honors that you have the right to decide. That we are entitled to agency and autonomy when it comes to things that belongs to us. What might get in the way you saying something, imagine your adolescent self or even your adult self because there are plenty still suffer from this. How come you might not say anything in that moment even though you are not ok with it?

Matt: Yeah. You know the first thing that comes to mind is no joke, my wife and I literally had this discussion, literally about French fries. Like, can we need to stop sharing for sure. So, the first thing that come to my mind, when you ask that was president. We like gosh, I am changing president now, like I've been ok with this but why I am not ok, was I never really ok with this? Yeah.

Shafia: So maybe some self-doubt. Or you don’t want to introduce tension or especially when we are talking about relationships, sometimes it is easier to not say anything. Maybe there is a competing value, right? Where you want to come across as generous or have been taught to share. Or you don’t want to be judged or open yourself up to be minimized, oh it’s just French fries, what’s the big deal? Right, someone saying something like that. But if you’re a teenager, who’s neurological programmed it’s already awkward. It may know about the teen years and self-conscious. And neurologically programmed to seek the acceptance of your peers. And someone helps themselves to your fries and you are not ok with it. Highly likely that all those things are gonna kick in and probably not gonna say anything. What else, not minimized sexual consent to French fries, what belongs to you talking about these within a sexual framework. What belongs to you?

Matt: Well, my choice, fries, the ketchup.

Shafia: Your agency, but if we are talking about relationships, what belongs to you? Or physical if we are talking about sexuality.

Matt: Well, my body belongs to me.

Shafia: Your body belongs to you. Your body, your sexuality, your agency that all belongs to you. You get to choose and how to get touched because your body belongs to you. Just like the French fries.

Matt: Right.

Shafia: That is the value of consent.

Matt: Yeah..

Shafia: Because it is about consideration, it is about honoring people’s agency, it’s about respect which is lots of kids have a misconception. I will ask a room of about a hundred kids, how many of you have been told to respect yourself and everyone else in your life basically your whole life. Every hand goes up. Now I’ll say ok who can give me a definition, every hand goes down.

Matt: About respecting yourself?

Shafia: About who knows about the definition of respect. I’ll say, how many of you have been told to respect others your whole life and then I’ll say ok who can give me definition. And all the hand goes down. Because we’ve been teaching our kids to respect each other and themselves but then we don’t take the time to actually talk about what that look, sound and feels like that explicitly is. And a lot of kids now is treating people how you want to be treated. Golden rule. There’s value on that but that’s not respect. That’s just treating people how they want to be treated and how would you know? You have to ask. So, these are the lessons for kids, we talk about French fries, and I have there’s other thing called think of a bear. It’s about using concrete analogy metaphors at a force way in which they can connect to this very fundamental concept, ideas that tend to be somewhat abstract and hard for them to understand. We also never want to assume that kids should have some form of experience to context to participate in our conversation into meaningful ways. That would be irresponsible. So, talking about things in this way sort of opens it up to kids like, oh ok. I get it. And that’s the beginning has talking about consent. And there’s all kind of consent or sex information and then the education is guidance to actually think about and apply to the complexities of human relationships. So we know there are a lot of those, right? So practice. Just like we do in all the other subjects, practice. So I use real scenarios from real kids in their real lives that I transcribe or they write for me, or they share with me and we look at those of course, change names to protect people’s confidentiality and things like that. It’s always with their consent. But they are so for this. They love the opportunity on participating this and then we talk through these scenarios. Oh like, ok here’s a scenario this is what you see, is it consensual, is it ethical, is it good. Because we gonna go so far beyond consent of so important, fundamental, it protects the fundamentals of human dignity. And it really is a low bar for positive pleasurable sexual experience. So also, we have to go beyond consent, it’s the floor not the ceiling. We gotta talk about like ethical sex, we gotta talk about what good sex is. People freak out when I say that. But once I take them through some sort of activity. Oh, ok I get it now. It is not the pop culture narrative. It is always on the context of individual readiness which means are exploring but it’s always in individual sense of readiness. That’s probably a whole other conversation how to cultivate that but that’s fundamentally where consent comes from. But when we present these scenarios and I use media clips to, so I find out kids digging into this. They love, they create a culture of this at your school and it will mushroom, and the kids will take ownership. I get stuff sent to me all the time from kids, hey I was watching this, I saw this scene it would be great to show in class. Because we don’t have kids to have to feel they have experiential context or it would be appropriate for them to show that publicly in a classroom right? So our shared experience is watching media. A lot of the things they are binge watching all the time. So I take little scenes that are appropriate, age- appropriate and we watch them. And we identify what was consensual, what wasn’t. the word is consent, the body language count. Was it enthusiastic? Is there a social power dynamic? Was there persuasive or coercive language? Do you think those people got to walk away with their dignity? How do you know? Did they enjoy it? Was it one-sided? Were they both invested? Was it shared experience or is it just someone getting off? Those are the questions we want to be asking with kids. So we do that with media, we do that with these real life stories, scenarios and not only am I showing them those issues that come up right? Where someone is not doing right by someone else or someone is engaged in sketchy behavior. Or downright nonconsensual illegal behavior. We also look at real life scenarios of young people doing it right. Of positive interaction, of difficult and challenging conversations. That they make their way through. Because when we do that, we recognize one, that they are actually capable of doing those things. Two, they see that their peers are actually able to do that. And so they can look for them for guidance. And three, they see their best selves in our eyes. Because we believe in them that they can actually do this. That we don’t have to create this self-fulfilling prophecy that teenagers are messing up all time. That they make horrible decisions all the time. Because they reality is they are not. They are actually doing a lot of good stuff. Especially given the context of what adolescent is like. Right, internally, externally so we got to give them credit where credit is due.

Matt: Yeah, I love those scenarios, in the book again as an adult propelled me forward so kids can get this right. So does not all getting be doing well.

Shafia: And they need to believe that too. And they need to know that you recognize that. And that they have that capacity. A lot of times I find this when I work with teenagers, there’s like two teenagers that can show up. The one that you talked to is the one that’s gonna show up and the one that’s dealing with all these negatives stereotypes around adolescents, mood swings and negativity and messy rooms and all that sort of stuff and then you see other teenagers that are passionate and mature, and has a lot of incredible insights and wants to do the right thing. The one that shows up tends to be the one we speak to. So we gotta be fair and equitable in how we approach these conversations. So that’s side of them gets to actually show up. The one we are trying to bring forth. The one that we are trying to cultivate consistency around. And if we don’t call it forward, if we don’t bring that teenager forward how we approach a conversation with them. That’s a must.

Matt: So, you mean, the side that we speak to, the side that we are addressing most of the time, the side assuming to be the one that shows up is the one that tends to show up. Ok, well this has been a fantastic conversation. We end our podcast with three questions, but we actually expanded it to four, but we found these wonderful moments that happened with these questions with you. What should we have asked you in this interview that we did not ask you?

Shafia: What’s the definition of good sex actually is and how to talk to kids about love?

Matt: Ok, let’s hear it.

Shafia: Ok, so real quick I’m gonna use…Have you had a positive, a really good positive conversation in your life? Ever? Like a really awesome.

Matt: Yeah.

Shafia: Ok. So if I was to witness that conversation like the observing it from the outside, what would I actually see? What would I see in your bodies? What would I see in terms of expressions on your faces? What would I see?

Matt: I think you would see sort of differences start to melt. In terms of body positioning and facial expressions, I think you’d see a little awkwardness because good conversations can touch on awkward areas and those are the one must be normal . Yeah.

Shafia: Would your body be open, or shift closed?

Matt: I think it would grow more open.

Shafia: It would grow more open; you might be leaning in and then would you be distracted in your phone or talking to someone sort of 20 feet away.

Matt: No.

Shafia: No, you’d be paying attention, there’d be eye contact. And then on your face eventually as things open up, you’d see this opening. And what would you see on that person’s face or your face?

Matt: That’s a smile. You’d see raised eyebrows.

Shafia: Yeah, you’d see smile and joy, the interest, on a serious conversation you’d probably seem concerned. And what’s the emotional embodied experience of a quality conversation? What do you actually feel? To allow for that relaxing into it, opening up. What’s present in the conversation?

Matt: What’s present emotionally?

Shafia: Yeah.

Matt: Care and friendship and love. I was gonna say safety as well.

Shafia: Yes, safety which leads to trust. Allows us to relax and to open up and be vulnerable. And after that conversation in retrospect, what is the emotional embodied experience?

Matt: Gratitude, usually. Fondness.

Shafia: Which you want to have another one?

Matt: Yeah, yeah. You want to talk to person more, you kinda miss the person.

Shafia: Yeah, kids will also say that they were inspired. Maybe it was something interesting and they were inspired, and they want to learn more. That they definitely want to have it again. they’d be satisfied. Fulfilled, enriched maybe they’d stretched and grew a little bit. Like all of us, some of us are there’s that 45-minute plane ride where you meet somebody, and you suddenly clicked, and you have that conversation, and it is really good and all those things are happening. Some people do that, some people don’t. some people have that social inclination or personality or styles, some people don’t other people, it’s like you go to that one person who you have established a relationship with who you can depend on and that’s where you have those conversations, and you can count on those aspects and characteristics that being there a lot of the time. That someone will care about you ask you questions. You will really pay attention to what you’re saying or offer something in return. In addition to that, there’s everything kind of in between, so here’s the thing, sex is a dialogue than expression. So just qualities of a good conversation, quality, good, positive, sexual experiences, and I point out to kids, everything you describe to me in response to my questions were not performative words. They were felt words. They were feeling words. You see how you teach kids; this is about connection. It’s about expression. So, you don’t even have to have that sexual experience to actually have to understand and know what emotional body part of it is or what it should look like. People laying into each other. People being open, smiles, joy, care, concern, paying attention, listening, actively engaging in a moment, right? That there’s a certain level of fundamental trust and safety. That there is a feeling of afterwards satisfaction that you wanted to do it again. even if it wasn’t available, you’d so look back on it with fondness because it was so good. That it actually inspired you and enriched your life. That is the narrative, the counternarrative to what kids are exposed to all the time every day. That is what I mean by good sex and love. We talk so much about, we’re modern people, we wanna check off the boxes, comprehensive sex, and everything else, but ultimately what are we aspiring to? Loving and caring relationships. We have to teach kids about love. And all the different ways it manifests expresses itself and amongst in between people because no love is the same. We are super individuals but there are certain aspects that commonalities that people can identify. And talk about sort of in terms of and to highlight that relationship skills and your capacity to connect and love are someone are separate. A lot of times we want it to be unwind when things are healthy but sometimes those things are separate. We can love someone and not be good at relationships with them right? But all those things that you guide them to discover for that stuff you show them the way, they are just looking for a path and you point them in that direction and they’ll walk it. They eat it up.

Matt: What is more important to know in relationships.

Shafia: Right. Because when life gets heavy and life gets hard and we know we certainly lived a year of that, like ultimately what is it that carry us through? The relationship with ourself, relationship with others and that’s how we come together as a community. It’s how we care for each other. All that other stuff doesn’t really matte, it is not fulfilling or enriching and contributing to our wellness.

Matt: No, no, No. Of course, when we are talking about importance of being a college prep prog, SAT scores, to AP score, there all that stuff may quickly get into education but parent wouldn’t want their child to have healthy relationships. We can choose between those, a lucrative career or healthy relationships, every parent gonna choose healthy relationships.

Shafia: Yeah. I open my parenting workshops with that question, how many of you want your kids as long as it’s age appropriate, on their terms to be in a relationship grounded in a mutual respect, safety, trust, empathy, all those things everything, hands go up every time.

Matt: Of course. Yeah.

Shafia: We want that for our kids. Yeah.

Matt: That’s a great way to begin a difficult subject.

Shafia: Yeah, and all of us who care about young people that’s what we want for them.

Matt: Absolutely. Well, great. We are now onto our final three questions, and they are what people should be reading, what should people be listening to and how can people connect with you.

Shafia: Peggy Orenstein books are fantastic. If you want a sense of what the landscape is to what we are preparing kids for and to navigate them. Girls in Sex, Boys in Sex she really reports on what’s happening culturally amongst young people and what the cultural narratives, sexpectations for what I call are and we’ll just reinforce even mor, what it is and identify for us what we are wrestling with. Sexual Citizens is another one. Jennifer S. Hirsch and who I am spacing on the name but you can link it on the note. But that’s also a really good one. That sort of the most recent, most comprehensive study then published as a book on sexual assault on college campuses. Why the numbers haven’t changed in the last 5 years. Ina Park, Strange Bedfellows which is about sexually transmitted infection. This is a real public health issue that we just need to be talking about and it is really not just about science of STI’s, it is more about how we have conversations, how do we not stigmatize this. How do we get tested, how do we be responsible and use protection and things like that. Marc Brackett, Permission to Feel I love this book. It is all about how we can become better and adults too do this. Broaden and deepen our vocabulary for accurately and authentically expressing our emotional embodied experiences. We tend to fall like trifecta of angry, sad, happy and there’s so many nuances right, that are out there for good or bad or fine. There’s so many other words that would more accurately capture what’s going on with us and enhance and recharge our communication especially with people we are in relationship with. All these folks are on podcasts, there’s all those teenagers, ask them, be genuinely curious, suspend judgement. Don’t lead with why, they have such good radar for that. Ask why and you already made a judgement. Lead with how, what, where, I notice, help me understand so approach a conversation with a teenager like that and learn something. And of course, Lisa Damour podcast since the pandemic started has been phenomenal. I love her work. I think her weekly podcast is really great for parents, and for educators in particular. So many nuggets, it’s like public health, service, parenting. It is so general and it’s so effective. For sure. And then you can contact me through my website, I’ll try to say on top of responding to anyone who contacts me through my website.

Matt: Well, thank you so much Shafia for coming on the show. This has been a fantastic conversation I’m gonna go back to it I think a hundred times. I know it will be a great benefit to our listeners and to our schools out there, so thank you again for joining us.

Shafia: Thank you for your interest. I appreciate the conversation.

jessica bonin